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#145290 - 06/18/03 09:01 PM MW1 (or anyone else) Care to Comment On.......
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

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Greg/BOTN's banning from the CU Board?
_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#145291 - 06/18/03 09:25 PM Re: MW1 (or anyone else) Care to Comment On....... [Re: vayank]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

Offline
Tough call on that one Yank. I've been following the threads and see good
arguments from both sides. The real issue to me is the way Orlando
handles some things over there. An issue such as this should of been
handled better with more tact. Instead lighter fluid is added to the
small fire that now turns into an out of control three alarmer.

Botn is an Sgc dealer too. I would not mind if he posted here. His
opinion would be welcomed. The damage is done if he goes back
to the Psa boards now. His opinion or lack of will hurt the strength
or conviction of his posts.


I will leave you all with these words of wisdom. Remember that the
number one reason why some people stay away from the sports
collectibles hobby is the PERCEPTION of the lack of integrity
in our hobby.

Therefore, when things are done such as banning people from forums
or regrading 4 Psa 8 red man cards to 9's, as a couple examples,
what is one to perceive? I'm not saying the banning was wrong
and I'm not saying upgrading four cards to 9's was right. I'm saying
that there are certain ways to do things that in the end will improve
the overall breathe of the hobby. These moves by Psa are clearly
motivated to protect the interests of dealers not the true collectors.
This is my PERCEPTION of Psa at times. Yet I thought the grading
companies were established to keep the interest of the collector
as the primary focus. Maybe not....

Thanks Joe.

aconte

_________________________

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#145292 - 06/18/03 10:41 PM My Statement [Re: aconte]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

Offline
Hi Guys,

In speaking with Charlie Kahler at PSA, who I consider a friend, Joe was motivated to pull the plug without warning as a result of his feeling that I had ulterior motives by my starting the Namath Thread. I have e-mailed Joe to apologize and explain as I did not mean any disrespect to him or to PSA but was merely venting, as I do. Anyone that knows me can verify that I can be outspoken and many would say inappropriate. I probably could have posted in a less adversarial manner but did so impulsively.

Joe and CU have been fairly tolerant of members' criticisms. I do not feel that I went too far on that post but it does not matter what I think. Joe is the President and Joe calls the shots. I have no problem with his banning me from the boards--it was a business decision and I do not begrudge him. I am not sure that Joe’s decision to leave the thread and silence me was in PSA’s best interest. But again, I do not see with Joe’s eyes.

It was nice to see that there are numerous collectors who do appreciate what I bring to the boards and the hobby and I find it sad that those who feel otherwise must offer their opinions while hiding behind their anonymity. If you have something to say to me, say it. Don’t be a coward.

It is no secret that I use all three grading services (SGC, GAI and PSA). For different reasons I like what each service has to offer. I will continue to use all three grading services as long as it makes sense to do so. Regardless of my status as a CU participant (and I told Joe that I would not register anonymously) I will post here regularly and continue to contribute to the Vintage Network 54 Board.

Thanks,
Greg

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#145293 - 06/19/03 04:42 AM Re: My Statement [Re: botn]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

Offline
This has nothing to do grading, but everything to do with leadership and maturity.

His banishment was an immature act of one closer to a teenager than a mature leader. "Prodigies" have been known to behave like this. The talent and even vision is there, but not the wisdom yet to fully realize his or her gifts.

This is a normal part of human development, and nothing to be ashamed of. However, the prodigy, because of their talent and success, may lack the chance to go through it in relative anonymity like us regular people. It can be hard to admit a public mistake, so you dig in instead. They may also lack a mentor in a traditional sense because they are already king of the hill, and who mentors the king? This is why so many prodigies (no matter what the industry) flame out and never meningful outdo the accomplishments of youth.

Will wisdom or hubris prevail? Forgiveness or revenge?


_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#145294 - 06/19/03 09:57 AM Re: My Statement [Re: vayank]
Fabfrank
(S)uper Collector


Registered: 06/11/02
Posts: 293

Offline
I try to stay as postive as possible when I post. Even when I want to vent, I'll type out my rant, read it and than realize I sound like a jerk and delete it.
That being said, I don't think anyone should be banned/suppressed from expressing their opinion.
Off Topic though, I'm glad to see MW1 back posting again. Your input and knowledge has been missed. I look foward to reading your posts.

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#145295 - 06/19/03 01:51 PM Re: My Statement [Re: Fabfrank]
HonusWagner
Hobbyist


Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 69
Loc: Toronto, Ontario

Offline
Welcome to the boards, Greg!
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#145296 - 06/19/03 01:56 PM Re: My Statement [Re: botn]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

Offline
Thanks for the response Botn. Welcome!

aconte
_________________________

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#145297 - 06/19/03 04:12 PM Re: MW1 (or anyone else) Care to Comment On....... [Re: vayank]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

Offline
I think that this is a really sad story.

I read the CU boards daily and find much of the discussion extremely interesting. I post infrequently given my choice of SGC as my primary grading service.

Over the past year, I have found BOTN's analysis and discussion among the most level headed and insightful on the CU board. The fact that he has been banned from the board for expressing his opinion on some centering issues on high value cards in PSA-8 holders is stunning. (BTW, I thought most/all of these cards were PSA-8 sliders -- barely OK by "the book" and certainly questionable).

Greg, welcome to the SGC boards. It has been a while since we have done any business, but I consider you a true professional. I look forward to your intelligent and insightful discussion....and in a forum where I feel more comfortable responding.

Scott


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#145298 - 06/19/03 04:16 PM Re: My Statement *DELETED* [Re: vayank]
MW1
veteran


Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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Post deleted by dena
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#145299 - 06/20/03 09:04 AM Re: My Statement [Re: MW1]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

Offline
Quote:

Matthew,

A very interesting interpretation. I would like to add that sometimes a loosely organized and haphazardly decentralized structure in any business environment can also impede the decisionmaking process.




Ahem, I believe this one decision making process sorely in need of being impeded!
_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#145300 - 06/22/03 05:38 PM Re: My Statement [Re: vayank]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

Offline
FYI

I was told that I would be reinstated as a member of the CU Forum. Joe Orlando has to give the OK and apparently has been too busy to deal with this or his lack of action is telling me that I am not going to be offered reinstatement.

On Saturday I sent him an e-mail offering my resignation, as I thought that it was a little silly that I still be considered an Authorized Dealer for PSA when he felt the need to silence me. If he does not feel that I properly represent PSA in a speaking capacity then I cannot possibly represent them as an Authorized Dealer and he should accept my resignation.

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#145301 - 06/22/03 06:47 PM Re: My Statement [Re: botn]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

Offline
Botn,

I've gone back and forth on whether something should of been said
to you on this. I can understand both point of views. The only thing
I'm pretty convinced of is that it was handled poorly by Psa. My guess
is they just hope you go away. I'm sure when the thread gets 'ttt'
it must iritate them. I would think they would not care but based on
the reactions to date they do care.

I thought that some of the cards you had up were a pass as eights. I
did not measure them but I thought they probably made it for eights.
And because of that I could understand their disagreement with you.
I can even understand somewhat their wanting to discipline (that might
be a bad word but I can't think of anything better) you in some type
of way. Psa management should of responded to your post to
disagree, emailed you privately to discuss, and maybe suspended
your board privileges for a short time, and issued a future warning.

Now they made a mountain out of a mole hill. If you go back to the
boards will you ever be able to be critical of anything in a Psa slab?

I hope you do go back since I enjoy your posts. I figure if you post
here and there it is a good thing for collectors like me who like
to learn about the hobby.

aconte

_________________________

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#145302 - 06/22/03 07:11 PM Re: My Statement [Re: aconte]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

Offline
Aconte,

Although it was nice to see the amount of support that I received from a majority of the members on the CU Forum, I never said that I handled the situation well. I have admitted to everyone that my post was impulsive and in that regard, off base. People who did take the time to measure the cards proved that my assessment was not accurate.

I thought that I had an understanding with someone at PSA to warn me if I were ever out of line. Not that it is this person's responsibility to keep an eye on me but I would have liked for PSA to handle this in a different way.

Certainly if I were to go back to the boards and if I were to remain a PSA Authorized Dealer then they would probably not tolerate my making public statements that criticize their service in any way. I suppose that makes sense too. If I were PSA I would ask myself why would someone like myself want to be a Rep if I am going to make criticisms of their company.

I think that it is time for us to part ways since we each have a different way of seeing things. Certainly PSA is not that sensitive to the criticism as they left the original post as well as many others in which people attack them. I think that they have a question as to my loyalty to them since I clearly support GAI and SGC. I was asked if my Namath post had ulterior motives. Obviously my open endorsement of other grading services is seen by them as a slap in the face. I do not know many PSA Authorized Dealers who are openly supporting SGC and GAI as alternatives to PSA.

Greg

Edited for spelling errors.

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#145303 - 06/22/03 08:43 PM Re: My Statement *DELETED* [Re: botn]
MW1
veteran


Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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Post deleted by dena
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#145304 - 06/22/03 11:03 PM Re: My Statement [Re: MW1]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

Offline
MW

I have never had a problem with GAI or SGC not wanting my business as a result of my being affiliated with PSA. I have never been approached in any way whereby I felt that I needed to make a choice. In fact, the last time that I spoke to Sean he agreed that there is a need for dealers and collectors to be open to using other services. With that said, PSA has never directly or indirectly (possibly until now) told me not to deal with SGC or GAI.

In speaking with Charlie at PSA I have told him recently on numerous occasions that my submissions were down or virtually non-existent because I was finding the grading all over the place and was concerned and frustrated. I am not the only one to see things this way. Just about every dealer that I speak with agrees right now that it is virtually impossible to predict your grades.

As for those cards that I posted I said that I was going based on a few minutes of evaluation on the entire group and did not measure them. I was going by eye appeal alone. Based on that they appeared off center and not consistent with the centering criterion that PSA uses for the unqualified 8 grade. I did not post out of being bitter just thought that I was pointing out the obvious. For as far back as I can remember 65/35 cards did not go into 8 holders unless they were MINT 9's, or close to it, in every other respect.

If it was my intent to really try to give PSA a black eye I could have posted images of other cards that may have more clearly demonstrated grading errors or oversights. I also could have posted details about recent submissions that I have made that involved serious problems which I took on the chin and chalked up to the cost of doing business.

Greg

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#145305 - 06/22/03 11:46 PM Re: My Statement *DELETED* [Re: botn]
MW1
veteran


Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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Post deleted by dena
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#145306 - 08/01/03 07:38 AM BOTN! [Re: MW1]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

Offline
Greg, just curious? Did you have your pow-wow and how did it go?
_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#145307 - 08/09/03 09:49 PM Re: BOTN! [Re: vayank]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

Offline
Hi Matthew,

I had decided not to go to the National this year for various reasons. My meeting with Joe was supposed to have taken place at SportsFest in Chicago in June. I think that BidKidAtHeart had posted in error on the CU board that Joe and I were to meet at the National.

I never met with Joe or attempted another contact with him after apologizing to him. I had decided that I had said everything that I wanted to say in the subsequent e-mails that followed his decision to ban me from the boards. I guess Joe and I have a different opinion about what my responsibilities are as an Authorized Dealer. As I have said, right or wrong, my obligation is to what I feel is in the best interest of the hobby and sometimes that is going to mean that I will say things that CU may not like. I have no idea what Joe wanted to say to me during this meeting where he said that we would "work it out". I know that I was not about to start posting under a probationary arrangement or to self-censor my posts.

The fact remains that I am most critical of PSA of all of the grading companies, PRO included, because I feel that management has an air of no accountability among other things. They are a product of their own success. And as such they should be subject to scrutiny, which most of the public is unwilling to take part of. I felt that it was my responsibility to not maintain party line and point out the flaws—even if that meant that I was inaccurate in that now infamous 1965 Topps Namath post.

I see many CU forum members being critical of PSA--more now than ever. The forum has lost other respected members, as you are aware. More members are expressing their dissatisfaction with policy changes (half point grading and the membership fee, most recently) and feel uneasy about whether or not PSA has their best interests. There is dissension even among the PSA faithful. At SportsFest I saw numerous dealers who have always been associated with PSA using SGC and GAI. That says a great deal to me about what the trend is for PSA, regardless of how many PSA graded cards dominate ebay at every given moment.

I do not submit to PSA any longer and have adjusted my inventory to accommodate the strengths associated with SGC and GAI grading services. I am not providing merchandise to holder buyers or the set registry members but to those who want to collect accurately graded cards, mainly in collector grade (under NM condition). I can and will make a living without the use of PSA.

Sorry for rambling, Matthew.

Best regards,
Greg

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#145308 - 08/10/03 05:42 AM Re: BOTN! [Re: botn]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

Offline
Greg, Thanks. People are curious. I wish you the best of luck, and hope to see you post here often.

There are a couple of threads here, which are hanging, waiting for someone with more vintage expertise to respond to.
_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#145309 - 08/10/03 08:55 AM Re: BOTN! [Re: botn]
KLL
Hobbyist


Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 62

Offline
Greg

We spoke about a year ago. I thought you made your living as an accountant and that you sold cards every once in a while. Has this changed? Do you have a web site? Please post the URL. Do you have a list of your current inventory that you can post for us. Do you have any 1959 or 1960 SGC 88-92's?

You mentioned that you saw "numerous dealers" who have been associated with PSA selling GAI & SGC cards. Which of these "PSA dealers" were selling SGC cards? DO you have any names? At the National I saw many of these "PSA dealers" with GAI cards on their tables, but not one with a single SGC card on their table. The only dealer that I saw with PSA & SGC cards was BMW and I would not consider him to be a "PSA dealer". And I don't think BMW had any GAI graded cards.

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#145310 - 08/10/03 08:58 AM Re: BOTN! [Re: botn]
KLL
Hobbyist


Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 62

Offline
Greg

Also. I have never used GAI. Can you tell us your feelings on their grading service? It appears to me that you seem to be ok with their service. Is it as accurate as SGC?

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#145311 - 08/10/03 10:07 AM Re: BOTN! [Re: KLL]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

Offline
KLL,

I used the see all the user's post function for this account Account Post History, and I noticed you seem focused on chatting up a "GAI/Where are the SGC cards" focus.

You do throw if a few good posts about Sean and SGC, but otherwise pork barrel any good comments about SGC with comments how sad it is "no one uses" SGC, or the SGC dealer list is bogus, or how sad it will be that no one carries the great SGC product at national, or how you look and look for SGC cards but can't find any at all and can find SGC since no one seems to sell them, and yada yada yada.

Multiple Examples

More multiple examples

Plus the thread the Is GAI catching up that got pulled. It certainly generated some good scholarship, but given the post history the motivation for starting the thread here is clear.

It is smart to say a few nice things about SGC and portray your "GAI/Where are the SGC cards" focus as mere curiousity to get "Street Cred" on the Board. Most posters don't have the time to research Post history, and want to think good things, but your participation has a theme shall we say.

Feel free to keep purusuing that theme if it is your pleasure, but it is not under the radar screen. I post on other's companies Board and everyone know where I am coming from. It is only sporting.
_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#145312 - 08/10/03 12:45 PM Re: BOTN! [Re: vayank]
KLL
Hobbyist


Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 62

Offline
My theme is: WHERE are the SGC DEALERS???

I've been a collector for a while and the vast majority of my small collection is SGC graded. I do own a few PSA graded cards. I own ZERO GAI cards.

I have become extremely frustrated in my search for SGC graded cards. SO much so that I am given consideration to giving up on SGC cards. Matter of fact I was determined to stop my collecting of SGC cards until I had a chat with Sean in Atlantic City. From our conversation I was told that efforts are being made to bring in more dealers to the SGC family of dealers.

My posts have to do with what is available to collect. I am of the opinion that the number of availble card in SGC graded cards is getting smaller! One of my favorite SGC dealers, Bob Kaiser (from our neck of the woods VAYANK) had NO SGC graded cards on his table at the National. He will no longer be selling SGC cards. He would not elaborate. I have purchased a good chunk of my collection from Bob at the Fort Washington show. Bob was one of 2 dealers at the Fort Washington show who had a nice display of high end graded 50-60's cards. I suspect that when I attend the show in Dec., if TC Cards does not have a display of SGC, no one will. You know, there are about 25 dealers in that room who have high end vintage PSA graded cards. Why don't they sell SGC cards? And why did I notice for the first time at the National in AC that quite a few of them now carry GAI holdered cards along with their PSA cards. I would like to know the answer to that too? For the time being I am holding onto to my SGC cards. If I decide to change services there seems to be one service that I know something about (PSA) and another that I want to get some input on their service. No matter how you cut it, SGC and PSA are both competent in their ability to grade. Is GAI?

Now I see that a board member (BOTN) seems to have encountered a few of these new SGC dealers. I want to know who they are.

I have invested a few dollars in SGC graded cards. Although I am not in it for the money, I do get concerned that there is a very thin market in SGC graded cards and that their value in general below that of PSA as compared to similar PSA graded cards. And I am not talking 1 or 2 examples that are sometimes shown here on the board as examples of SGC vs PSA.

I would like to see that we have more choices in regards to dealers selling SGC graded cards. For the area of my collecting interest, there are very few options at this time!


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#145313 - 08/10/03 01:10 PM Re: BOTN! [Re: KLL]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

Offline
KLL,

I am a Business Manager and have been making a living as such since 1986. In 1989 I decided to start collecting cards again and shortly after that began selling. For the past 5 years or more I have derived most of my income from the sales of sports cards. I continue to do both but my focus has become card sales predominately. Only because you ask, my site address is www.botn.com.

At SportsFest I saw many PSA Dealers bringing their cards to SGC and GAI at the show. I did not however see a great deal of SGC and GAI cards in their cases at the time. I think that these dealers were just starting to explore other grading options due to the inadequacies they were seeing with PSA. I did not attend the National so I have no idea who had SGC and GAI graded material of those dealers in attendance. It reasons to conclude that show would have been the first show that some of them would be debuting their non-PSA graded cards.

It was clear in speaking with these dealers that they no longer felt obligated to only use PSA after 10+ years. Some of the names are Bill Goodwin, Gerry Schwartz, Brian Drent, Craig Roehrig, Bob Krawetz and Andy Madec.

As for GAI, I have been very happy with their grading, customer service, turn around time and the prices realized. They and SGC are ideal alternatives to the inconsistencies of PSA.

Best,
Greg


Edited by botn (08/10/03 02:00 PM)

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#145314 - 08/10/03 01:57 PM Re: BOTN! [Re: botn]
KLL
Hobbyist


Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 62

Offline
Greg

Thank you for the response. I am looking forward to seeing your web site up and running. It is needed.

And I agree with your observation regarding Nationally known dealers. I did not speak to any of them regarding their reasoning for having GAI graded cards on their tables. But they all told me that they were very happy with the service. I did not notice any cards at Bill Goodwins table. Matter of fact he had only a hnadful of PSA graded cards. He mostly had ungraded cards and some memorabilia.

I don't know who is submitting what to the grading services. I hope your observations are correct that more of these dealers are submitting cards to SGC. And I am looking forward to seeing these cards on their tables or web sites in the near future.

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#145315 - 08/10/03 02:01 PM Re: BOTN! [Re: KLL]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

Offline
KLL,

Shows you how poor my marketing skills are. I had a typo in my web address which has now been corrected.

Thanks,
Greg

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#145316 - 08/10/03 02:24 PM Re: BOTN! [Re: KLL]
stanthemanfan
If I just sell the car, I can up my bid...


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 366

Offline
KLL

My first post as a message board member consisted of singing the blues about lack of available SGC vintage for sale in the 88 and 92 range for the 1950's and 60's. So I've got involved in some PSA and GAI vintage that all went for cross-overs. My collection plan is to be 100% SGC.

Out of about 12 crossover cards - I've seen 2 crossover from PSA 8's to 92's and 1 GAI go from a 9 to a 96. The other 9 have either not met the equivalent SGC grade or have come back lower. 1 PSA was blantantly trimmed. Granted, a good portion of the group that didn't meet the min grade are very solid cards that I chalk up to SGC being unreasonable that day - but overall - the process of buying to cross is expensive and risky.

I feel the same way you do - picking thru SGC dealer inventories trying to find a decent card from some fairly stagnant inventories because I'm antsy to buy is not a good collecting situation.

I just sit tight and pick and choose from the small number of cards that come up for sale. If you decide to go the cross-over route - here are my opinions based on experience.

GAI - never had a problem with an altered card but plan on taking a 1/2 grade reduction when going into a SGC holder.

PSA - The range is huge in their 8 grade. I've bought a few gems that went over to an SGC 92, and I've also got some questionable cards as well. PSA's popularity does allow for too many steals in this grade range.

SCD - Did well on a few 1968 commons - got burned on some older vintage that was trimmed.

Good luck with you collection.

STMF

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#145317 - 08/18/03 12:18 PM Re: BOTN! [Re: KLL]
Fabfrank
(S)uper Collector


Registered: 06/11/02
Posts: 293

Offline
I've been working on the Philly football issues on the CU Registry. There just wasn't enough inventory in SGC graded cards to go that way. But lately I've been seeing a few SGC Philly football cards on Ebay. I checked today and there was about 20 SGC cards listed out of 80 total. This is an example of SGC cards beginning to find there way into the market.
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