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#181122 - 08/10/03 12:45 PM Is There A Doctor In The House?
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

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I was asked to view a certain notable dealer's webpage to view certain cards on that site. It seems that every one of the six examples have a similar "look" on the top edge and top corners. The last time that I came out and posted several images of cards that I felt were not graded accurately I got into a little "trouble". Therefore this time I will only ask for others to render an opinion or comment. Does the wear on the corners look natural?

www.botn.com/ex1.jpg
www.botn.com/ex2.jpg
www.botn.com/ex3.jpg
www.botn.com/ex4.jpg
www.botn.com/ex5.jpg
www.botn.com/ex6.jpg

Then there were these three examples from the same dealers page. Do these cards look accurately graded?

www.botn.com/ex7.jpg
www.botn.com/ex8.jpg
www.botn.com/ex9.jpg

This post is to serve only as an attempt for you vintage collectors and dealers to assist me in refining my grading skills. Thanks for your input.

Greg

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#181123 - 08/10/03 07:09 PM Re: Is There A Doctor In The House? [Re: botn]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

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Some of those look really bad. The overgrades especially the Campanella
is horrible. And if I handed in that 55 Clemente it would of been lucky to
score a 7.

My question is do you think people have become more picky with there
card purchases compared to say two-three years ago? I wonder if the
number of straight holder buyers has gone down. I would think though
a bad eight will get you more money than a decent seven every day
of the week!

aconte
_________________________

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#181124 - 08/11/03 08:13 AM Re: Is There A Doctor In The House? [Re: botn]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

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Greg,

All of the cards in the upper grouping come from issues that I do not collect and have no particular expertise. That being said, the T205's top border looks awfully clean for the amount of corner damage...I guess I would have expected to see some flaking. The top border on the '49 Campy is wavy enough to make me sea sick. All the rest look to have plenty of room in their holders -- so that looks a little suspicious, but I don't see anything notable (except the 2 Foxx's and the Manush are about the ugliest 8's I've ever seen). Judging from the title of the thread, I'd say you suspect some sort of doctoring -- I'd appreciate learning more about what you see in the cards and what you look for.

On the lower grouping, I would think that Hornsby's UR corner would preclude an 8. Campy's centering is really marginal -- especially with the T/B diamond cut...too close to say without measuring. Clemente looks like a PSA-8 slider to me -- probably OK to the book but lacking eye appeal (I assume the R edge is a rough cut...of perhaps just between pixels in the scan).

My 2 cents and, again, would greatly appreciate more learned commentary.

Scott

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#181125 - 08/11/03 03:11 PM Re: Is There A Doctor In The House? [Re: botn]
KLL
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Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 62

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I really can't tell all that much from the scans. I did some checking on the 1949 Bowman Campy (The only one that I checked).

If you check the 3 cards before and after the Campy serial number, you would see the following:

02023074 1949 B Berra PSA 9
02023073 1949 B Musial TRIMMED
02023072 1932 US CAR Simmons PSA 9
02023076 1949 B Campy PSA 8
02023077 1953 T Mays PSA 9 (I can't read my writing-I think it is a Mays)
02023078 1954 B Mays PSA 8

One hell of a submission. At least they caught the Musial.

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#181126 - 08/11/03 04:57 PM Re: Is There A Doctor In The House? *DELETED* [Re: botn]
MW1
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Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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Post deleted by dena
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#181127 - 08/11/03 05:34 PM Re: Is There A Doctor In The House? [Re: MW1]
KLL
Hobbyist


Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 62

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MW

I checked the cert # on the 34 GO Gehrig. Numerous other 34 Goudey were submitted at the same time. Believe it or not, 3 PSA 10's were had from that same submission! Incredible!!

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#181128 - 08/11/03 05:39 PM Re: Is There A Doctor In The House? *DELETED* [Re: KLL]
MW1
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#181129 - 08/11/03 06:16 PM Re: Is There A Doctor In The House? [Re: MW1]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

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Mike,

Those examples are just atrocious. Thanks for sharing. PSA must be proud of those examples.

I was doing a search of cert numbers around the 33 Lajoie "6" and there were nothing but 9's and 10's. In there was a 48 Leaf Roby 9 and some other monster cards. No idea who the submitter was but he sure has a good eye for high grade cards.

I believe that it is PSA's position that not many WIWAG cards are in circulation anymore since they got most of them back. They also claim that the population of cards that were subject of the fraud were mostly modern cards and not vintage. Also you mentioned resealed. I do not remember anyone stating that the holders were resealed. It maybe that something else occurred that is far more serious. But that is a whole other topic in itself just like what has happened to Real Legends Grade N Trade? Since the WIWAG scandal they are no longer in business.

But back to the topic...I wandered. It reasons that PSA is not too concerned about that Guarantee that they offer. I just do not understand the motivation surrounding polluting the hobby with examples such as these.

Greg

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#181130 - 08/12/03 01:09 PM Re: Is There A Doctor In The House? *DELETED* [Re: botn]
MW1
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#181131 - 08/12/03 09:01 PM Re: Is There A Doctor In The House? [Re: MW1]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

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Mike,

I have very little in the way of inventory in PSA holders and my personal collection consists of none. I did not make that adjustment until the Chicago National when I spent time speaking with several dealers who were very frank about having cards restored and how easy it is to get them into PSA holders. I knew that this was occurring but not in the numbers that I was presented.

I would agree with you that there are far more collectors and some dealers who are more concerned today with having their money tied up in PSA graded cards then there were this time last year. There are several factors: WIWAG scandal and the impact of the poor handling by PSA and the FBI, talk of the half point system, new holder (as you mentioned) and lets not overlook the frustration that exists relating to the extreme inconsistencies in the grading room. I have been submitting since 1994, I have never seen such variances in grading. That was one of the key factors in my decision to use SGC and GAI exclusively.

I would only hope that the examples that we posted in this thread and all others like them will not be purchased by collectors who are holder buyers and will in fact remain in the dealer’s inventory. At some point it would be great to see PSA be forced to "retire" cards like those but recent history illustrates that this will most likely not happen.

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#181132 - 08/13/03 06:22 AM They'll be sold - Maybe at a Slight Discount [Re: botn]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

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Quote:

I would only hope that the examples that we posted in this thread and all others like them will not be purchased by collectors who are holder buyers and will in fact remain in the dealer’s inventory.




botn,

You might be over-estimating the knowledge of many of today's collector.
Or you may be under-estimating the greed by some. Let us say the cards you
posted are over-graded (in general) by one full point. If these cards went to
auction on ebay my bet would be that the seller might not realize a Psa
8 price on the cards, but would definitely get a premium over the Psa 7
or nm price for those cards. In essence, the seller is extremely happy with
that outcome. And I bet the buyer is now think he can unload this card
for SMR or even a premium of SMR. And he might! As a dealer in this
case, if you can continue to do this with some of your high end inventory
it sure makes sense to use Psa in these cases. Mix this in with some
of your good (high-end) Psa graded cards and you can make some nice $$$.

Quote:

At some point it would be great to see PSA be forced to "retire" cards like those but recent history illustrates that this will most likely not happen.





I agree. This would not happen. First, grading is subjective so anyone
can argue that these cards are good or bad. It's all an opinion. I think
grading is the best thing that happened for the hobby (at least for me).
However, grading has caused many people to second guess their own
opinions on a card. There is a Psa 8 1953 Gene Woodling red man
card on ebay right now. The seller is a good guy. It's graded an eight
but I wouldn't buy that card. I saw a couple people look at the card and
say "WOW! That's nice" Not to me. So I did not buy it. I would do the
same in any company's holder!

The second reason why Psa would not "retire" cards like the ones in your
example is because it would be suicide. They are a public company.
This would bring the stock down. Way down! I would never hire anyone
on Psa's/CU's management team that would cause this to happen. It
would be a terrible business decision. Idiotic at best.

aconte

_________________________

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#181133 - 09/12/03 12:49 PM Re: They'll be sold - Maybe at a Slight Discount [Re: aconte]
CONFUSED
Just got here


Registered: 09/12/03
Posts: 4

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Tony,

Whether your buying 81 topps or redmans always buy the card and not
the holder.

This is my first post over here. These are my pet peaves, myself being
more of a seller and buyer of modern cards and piddle in 65 fb. Why is
it I rarely get a good solid card from a major submitter then when I buy
from joe blow that only submitted 20 cards it always seems to be undergraded.


65 fb out of my subs of 100 cards 65 7's 23 8's and the rest 6's. Ok they
grade these tough. Only 17 9's were graded at the time. As of today in
one years time were sitting at 55. I've stole a few here and there only
to come to the conclusion maybe maybe a 9. I've bought over 50 8's in the
past year still with nothing that matches my 8's let alone 7's. I've been
appauled on how 70-30 has now squeaked into an 8 holder along with 3
visible touches not even with the loupe.

Now for the poor modern collectors 70-80's boys the range on the 9's can
be anything from a 7 to a 9 pd. These guys buying slabs to think they will
have something in return is a farse. Now if your going through your own
submissions and are a very picky person someone will want your cards I've
came to that conclusion after selling of 2 85% sets in high grade and have
done quite well on both. Yet you must know some folks ie team set collector
and so on.

I feel the 70s' market is glutted with overgraded cards and it's a fact. Dealers
getting the 4.00 rate only to have grader rifle down the invoice entering 8,9,10
at a percentage that always remains within 2% no matter what you send them.
I myself have graded over 8000 cards in late 70's and early 80's and never fails,
15% 10's 5% 8's and rest being 9's with no ryme or reason of what the card
yields. Beancounters anyone.

One story that I find disturbing is a large submitter said no to about 2000 late
70's only to have another large submitter say I'll take them only to see them on
ebay a month later in guess what psa 9 fashion.

Just my 2 cents

Aka Unknown

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#181134 - 09/12/03 01:47 PM Re: They'll be sold - Maybe at a Slight Discount [Re: CONFUSED]
grilloj39
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 215
Loc: San Antonio, TX

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I do think that PSAs ability to accurately grade vintage cards has declined somewhat, however minor; but I recently brought a PSA 8 1959 Clemente and a PSA 7 1969 Clemente, and a PSA 5 OPC Gretzky Rookie. I took the cards out of the slabs (and no I didn't damage the cards), and submitted raw to GAI. My results were a GAI 7 for the 1959, GAI 5 for the 1969 and a GAI 3 for the Gretzky. I can tell you when I rec'd the PSA cards in the mail that I brought over e-bay, I was disappointed to say the least. The rest of the cards crossed over, but they were minor vintage rookies and commons. Bottom line: I got burned on the high value cards.

Only 1 card was upgraded from a PSA 6 to a GAI 7 and that was a 71 Alex Delvecchio card submitted raw.

I am seriously considering buying only GAI and SGC over the Internet. I will buy a PSA card (or SCD, BVG) if i can physically examine it.
_________________________
Always looking for GAI,SGC,PSA vintage Hockey and Boxing.

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