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#1979727 - 01/24/09 05:15 PM JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF?
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Los Angeles Dodgers Hall of Fame outfielder Duke Snider, left, chats with Jeff Kent after Kent announced his retirement from baseball during a news conference at Dodger Stadium Thursday, Jan. 22, 2009 in Los Angeles. Kent, 40, spent 17 years in the major leagues and leaves as the career home-run leader among second basemen with 351, 74 more than Hall of Famer Ryne Sandberg.
(AP Photo/Reed Saxon)


Edited by EARLSWORLD (01/24/09 05:19 PM)
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#1979728 - 01/24/09 06:06 PM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: EARLSWORLD]
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Awsome pic and story Earl. Thanks for the pic. I love Duke Snider!!!
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#1979730 - 01/24/09 06:11 PM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: Blackie]
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Nice picture, and yes his numbers put him in the Hall of Fame.
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#1979732 - 01/24/09 06:49 PM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: mattbojo]
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I would say yes. He has good hall of fame stats. The only thing i see that could hurt him is, he only finished in the top 5 MVP voting once.
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#1979734 - 01/24/09 07:31 PM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: The elder]
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In 17 years, he was only an All Star 5 times. I am going with no.
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#1979736 - 01/24/09 07:45 PM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: FYS]
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Jeff Kent was a Cleveland Indian back some years ago. I watched him play but was not impressed with him at that point in his career --- I thought just another second baseman, nothing extraordinary! I never really watch him much before that or after he left Cleveland. I guess that could be disadvantaging in trying to analyze a career. However, numbers for most do the talking. They are a tale all by themselves. However, pure stats cannot paint a clear enough picture either of someone being worthy of Hall of Fame status. I'll be honest, I was SURPRISED to say the least when they announced Kent's presumable position in the HOF. I knew he was touted as being an All-Star second baseman, but I have seen a lot of these through the years - many not worthy of the Hall. Take Carlos Baerga of the Cleveland Indians. He was an All-Star second baseman who put up tremendous numbers but only for a a period of time. Should he be in the Hall Of Fame -- absolutely not! I guess it really all comes down to the numbers you put up over the span of a career. I really can't say one way or another if Kent belongs there, but I can think of a few who aren't there that should be before him!
 Originally Posted By: FYS
In 17 years, he was only an All Star 5 times. I am going with no.
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#1979738 - 01/24/09 07:58 PM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: EARLSWORLD]
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During the first half of his career Craig Biggio was the dominant 2B. Now there is a hall of famer. Kent then had his five year stretch and Utley has now taken over. Kent never won a golden glove and was only a silver slugger 4 times. Forget stats, you have to look at how you did with your peer group. For 4-5 years he was the best offensive 2B in the National League. He was never the best defenisve 2B in the National League. I just do not see a 4-5 year span as good enough for the Hall. A good analogy of a non-HOF'er 2B is Lou Whitaker. Lou was a 5 time All Star and a 4 time silver slugger. The same as Kent. Lou also had 3 gold gloves to add to the party. Lou also had to compete agains Roberto Alomar for a good part of his career. Alomar is a sure fire HOF'er. So Kent is to Biggio and Whitaker is to Alomar. FYS - President of the no Jeff Kent in the Hall Fan Club.
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#1979739 - 01/24/09 08:07 PM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: FYS]
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I am no Jeff Kent fan. But if you retire with the most career home runs at your position, you will get in(unless you are Mark McGwire). Especially if you are a catcher or middle infielder.

Edited by mattbojo (01/24/09 08:13 PM)
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#1979740 - 01/24/09 08:29 PM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: FYS]
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Very nicely put, Mike! You make some very good points. When I think of HOF'er, I think of an IMPACT player, the goto guy when you need someone to pick you up and carry you! Craig Biggio is definitely IMHO that type of player who year in and year out was the BEST at his position. He could beat you with both his glove & bat! I expect him to make it in FIRST round! BIGGIO & KENT makes a great comparison because when I think of these two players (who both are going to be considered for placement in the HOF), what comes to mind are two distinctly different caliber players - one HOF worthy and the other I'm not sure of. I think you have a good case FYS!
 Originally Posted By: FYS
During the first half of his career Craig Biggio was the dominant 2B. Now there is a hall of famer. Kent then had his five year stretch and Utley has now taken over. Kent never won a golden glove and was only a silver slugger 4 times. Forget stats, you have to look at how you did with your peer group. For 4-5 years he was the best offensive 2B in the National League. He was never the best defenisve 2B in the National League. I just do not see a 4-5 year span as good enough for the Hall. A good analogy of a non-HOF'er 2B is Lou Whitaker. Lou was a 5 time All Star and a 4 time silver slugger. The same as Kent. Lou also had 3 gold gloves to add to the party. Lou also had to compete agains Roberto Alomar for a good part of his career. Alomar is a sure fire HOF'er. So Kent is to Biggio and Whitaker is to Alomar. FYS - President of the no Jeff Kent in the Hall Fan Club.
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#1979741 - 01/24/09 08:40 PM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: mattbojo]
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Home runs mean so much less in the era he played. Sandberg was an All Star 10 times, gold glove 9 times and a silver slugger 7 times. That is so much more dominant against his peer group than Kent against his peer group. Chicks digging the long ball is very overated. For other big long ballers short of the Hall: Fred McGriff, Jeff Bagwell, Dave Kingman, Andre Dawson, Juan Gonzalez, Billy Williams, Darrel Evans etc.

Other 2nd Basemen As or More Deserving than Kent:

1. Alfonso Soriano (7 Time All Star) - Future HOF
2. Lou Whitaker (5 Time All Star) - Will not get in.
3. Bobby Grich (6 Time All Star)- Will not get in.
4. Roberto Alomar (12 Time All Star)- Future HOF
5. Frank White (5 Time All Star) - Will not get in.
6. Willie Randolph (6 Time All Star) - Will not get in.
7. Steve Sax (6 Time All Star)- Will not get in.
8. Bobby Richardson (8 Time All Star) - Will not get in.

The home runs are nice, but Kent does not hold up against his peers. He falls into the special category with Grich, Whitaker, Randolph etc. Not the HOF'ers with Morgan, Sandberg, Alomar, Biggio etc.


Edited by FYS (01/24/09 08:41 PM)
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#1979747 - 01/25/09 06:03 AM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: FYS]
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No way on this green earth Kent gets in. Not dominant at all and not popular with the voters.

Although Topps Hertiage 2008 did put him on card #20, which was the Duke's card in the original 1959 set.

I also noticed Pujols got assigned #150, same as Stan-the-Man in 1959.

Nice.
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#1979748 - 01/25/09 08:16 AM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: FYS]
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Hi Mike~ I just needed to cross Billy Williams off your list of non HOF'ers. He was inducted in the CLASS of 1987 after years of being kept out. BILLY WILLAMS - HOF 1987
 Originally Posted By: FYS
Home runs mean so much less in the era he played. Sandberg was an All Star 10 times, gold glove 9 times and a silver slugger 7 times. That is so much more dominant against his peer group than Kent against his peer group. Chicks digging the long ball is very overated. For other big long ballers short of the Hall: Fred McGriff, Jeff Bagwell, Dave Kingman, Andre Dawson, Juan Gonzalez, Billy Williams, Darrel Evans etc.

Other 2nd Basemen As or More Deserving than Kent:

1. Alfonso Soriano (7 Time All Star) - Future HOF
2. Lou Whitaker (5 Time All Star) - Will not get in.
3. Bobby Grich (6 Time All Star)- Will not get in.
4. Roberto Alomar (12 Time All Star)- Future HOF
5. Frank White (5 Time All Star) - Will not get in.
6. Willie Randolph (6 Time All Star) - Will not get in.
7. Steve Sax (6 Time All Star)- Will not get in.
8. Bobby Richardson (8 Time All Star) - Will not get in.

The home runs are nice, but Kent does not hold up against his peers. He falls into the special category with Grich, Whitaker, Randolph etc. Not the HOF'ers with Morgan, Sandberg, Alomar, Biggio etc.


Edited by EARLSWORLD (01/25/09 08:18 AM)
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#1979749 - 01/25/09 08:24 AM BASEBALL HALL OF FAME - COOPERSTOWN'S SHRINE [Re: EARLSWORLD]
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Edited by EARLSWORLD (01/25/09 08:25 AM)
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#1979765 - 01/25/09 12:13 PM Re: BASEBALL HALL OF FAME - COOPERSTOWN'S SHRINE [Re: EARLSWORLD]
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I dont think Kent should get in, a very good player but not a hall of famer. He put up good numbers over a long time period. He was hardly an all star much less dominate.

On the other hand, Biggio should be a first ballot HOFer.

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#1979775 - 01/25/09 03:03 PM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: FYS]
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 Originally Posted By: FYS
.

Other 2nd Basemen As or More Deserving than Kent:

1. Alfonso Soriano (7 Time All Star) - Future HOF
2. Lou Whitaker (5 Time All Star) - Will not get in.
3. Bobby Grich (6 Time All Star)- Will not get in.
4. Roberto Alomar (12 Time All Star)- Future HOF
5. Frank White (5 Time All Star) - Will not get in.
6. Willie Randolph (6 Time All Star) - Will not get in.
7. Steve Sax (6 Time All Star)- Will not get in.
8. Bobby Richardson (8 Time All Star) - Will not get in.



None of those 2nd baseman are more deserving than Kent's. Kent's stats are better than any of those including Alomar's. It would be hard to deny a 2nd baseman who had 377 home runs and over 1,500 RBI. THATS VERY IMPRESSIVE FOR A 2ND BASEMAN. He also had a high slugging of 500.

How many times a player was an all-star should mean very little. There have been players who won the season MVP and wasn't an all-star in the same year. All star voting is for the 1st half of the season only. And usually fans vote on who there favorite player is and not stats. Its just a popularity contest. Every year there are players that should be a all star that are not. And vice versa.
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#1979780 - 01/25/09 03:34 PM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: The elder]
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 Originally Posted By: The elder
 Originally Posted By: FYS
.

Other 2nd Basemen As or More Deserving than Kent:

1. Alfonso Soriano (7 Time All Star) - Future HOF
2. Lou Whitaker (5 Time All Star) - Will not get in.
3. Bobby Grich (6 Time All Star)- Will not get in.
4. Roberto Alomar (12 Time All Star)- Future HOF
5. Frank White (5 Time All Star) - Will not get in.
6. Willie Randolph (6 Time All Star) - Will not get in.
7. Steve Sax (6 Time All Star)- Will not get in.
8. Bobby Richardson (8 Time All Star) - Will not get in.



None of those 2nd baseman are more deserving than Kent's. Kent's stats are better than any of those including Alomar's. It would be hard to deny a 2nd baseman who had 377 home runs and over 1,500 RBI. THATS VERY IMPRESSIVE FOR A 2ND BASEMAN. He also had a high slugging of 500.

How many times a player was an all-star should mean very little. There have been players who won the season MVP and wasn't an all-star in the same year. All star voting is for the 1st half of the season only. And usually fans vote on who there favorite player is and not stats. Its just a popularity contest. Every year there are players that should be a all star that are not. And vice versa.


Hard to argue with "The Elder's" points.

I whole heartedly agree that the All-Star thing is really meaningless. A mear popularity contest that is Highly misleading as to a players worth.
The MVP is also pretty misleading as well.
Kent's numbers clearly put him in.

John
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#1979783 - 01/25/09 03:56 PM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: BigRedOne]
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Hi John~

In part I agree with you and the Elder as far as numbers go and that is the most important factor I believe will be considered when it is his turn to be voted on. However, yes, the status of All-Star is a popularity vote and perhaps MVP misleading, but those are great attributes assigned to HOF caliber players. The only thing that bothers me about Kent and why I am not sure of his place in the Hall is his lack of presence and dominance as a player. When I think about the Johnny Benches, Rod Carews, Brooks Robinsons, Cal Ripkens, Ryne Sandbergs, etc....those names conjure up an image in my mind of greatness. When you mention the name JEFF KENT, I do not have that at all regarding his tenure as a player. My question is, WHY NOT? I could not vote him in based on those merits, The only thing then I have to go on is his 17 years and productivity that even surprises me to see. Hall of Famer or not -- I will leave this one up to the voters!
 Originally Posted By: BigRedOne
 Originally Posted By: The elder
 Originally Posted By: FYS
.

Other 2nd Basemen As or More Deserving than Kent:

1. Alfonso Soriano (7 Time All Star) - Future HOF
2. Lou Whitaker (5 Time All Star) - Will not get in.
3. Bobby Grich (6 Time All Star)- Will not get in.
4. Roberto Alomar (12 Time All Star)- Future HOF
5. Frank White (5 Time All Star) - Will not get in.
6. Willie Randolph (6 Time All Star) - Will not get in.
7. Steve Sax (6 Time All Star)- Will not get in.
8. Bobby Richardson (8 Time All Star) - Will not get in.



None of those 2nd baseman are more deserving than Kent's. Kent's stats are better than any of those including Alomar's. It would be hard to deny a 2nd baseman who had 377 home runs and over 1,500 RBI. THATS VERY IMPRESSIVE FOR A 2ND BASEMAN. He also had a high slugging of 500.

How many times a player was an all-star should mean very little. There have been players who won the season MVP and wasn't an all-star in the same year. All star voting is for the 1st half of the season only. And usually fans vote on who there favorite player is and not stats. Its just a popularity contest. Every year there are players that should be a all star that are not. And vice versa.


Hard to argue with "The Elder's" points.

I whole heartedly agree that the All-Star thing is really meaningless. A mear popularity contest that is Highly misleading as to a players worth.
The MVP is also pretty misleading as well.
Kent's numbers clearly put him in.

John
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#1979793 - 01/25/09 07:11 PM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: The elder]
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 Originally Posted By: The elder
.

None of those 2nd baseman are more deserving than Kent's. Kent's stats are better than any of those including Alomar's. It would be hard to deny a 2nd baseman who had 377 home runs and over 1,500 RBI. THATS VERY IMPRESSIVE FOR A 2ND BASEMAN. He also had a high slugging of 500.

How many times a player was an all-star should mean very little. There have been players who won the season MVP and wasn't an all-star in the same year. All star voting is for the 1st half of the season only. And usually fans vote on who there favorite player is and not stats. Its just a popularity contest. Every year there are players that should be a all star that are not. And vice versa.


My main point is you can not compare today RBI's and Home Runs vs. yesterdays. They are not equal. Home Run's and RBI's alone look impressive, but when Kent is compared against his peer group in the NL he does not cut it. Total all star appearances are a very good indicator of HOF potential. In fact, there is an abosolutely strong correlation. You can argue voting may taint the starting position to some extent, but the backups selections typically make up for this. People get overlooked in one year, but for the HOF'ers one year doesn't matter as they will be making the team 8 - 10 - 12 - 14 times in there career.

The moral of the story, RBI's and Home Runs achieved from 1992-2006 simply mean much less than they did prior.
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#1979800 - 01/25/09 08:13 PM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: FYS]
The elder
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 Originally Posted By: FYS
 Originally Posted By: The elder
.

None of those 2nd baseman are more deserving than Kent's. Kent's stats are better than any of those including Alomar's. It would be hard to deny a 2nd baseman who had 377 home runs and over 1,500 RBI. THATS VERY IMPRESSIVE FOR A 2ND BASEMAN. He also had a high slugging of 500.

How many times a player was an all-star should mean very little. There have been players who won the season MVP and wasn't an all-star in the same year. All star voting is for the 1st half of the season only. And usually fans vote on who there favorite player is and not stats. Its just a popularity contest. Every year there are players that should be a all star that are not. And vice versa.


Home Run's and RBI's alone look impressive, but when Kent is compared against his peer group in the NL he does not cut it.


I dont understand how you can think he doesn't stand out with his peers? He hit far more home runs than any other 2nd baseman that played before him and with him during the time he played.

All-star appearances mean very little when determined if a player is a hall of famer. Willie McCovey only appeared in 6 all-stars, and is a 1ST ballot hall of famer.
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#1979802 - 01/25/09 08:37 PM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: The elder]
FYS
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McCovey had 500 HR's back when 500 Home Runs meant automatic induction. That is no longer the case i.e. McGwire and in the future with Palmerio and potentially Sheffield etc.

Kent had 5 lifetime AS appearances. There are two HOF'ers in the entire history of the HOF with 5 or fewer appearances and they are Robin Yount and Phil Rizzuto. One, that tells me that there is a absolutely strong correlaiton between All Star games appearances and getting into the Hall. So the question becomes, is Jeff Kent good enough to be the third position player in the history of baseball to only have 5 AS appearances, but make it into the Hall?
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#1979810 - 01/26/09 12:33 AM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: FYS]
The elder
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 Originally Posted By: FYS
McCovey had 500 HR's back when 500 Home Runs meant automatic induction.


All the more proof they consider stats and not all star games. Bill Mazeroski was selected to 10 all star games. But it took him 25 years to get voted in the hall. There are first ballot HOF's that only played in 6 or 7 all-stars. I dont think Kent will get penalized for playing 1 or 2 less. The reason Mark Mcgwire has gotten turned away so far has nothing to do with his stats. Its because of his steroid use. Otherwise his 583 home runs and 588 slugging would be a lock. Not to mention, it was him and Sosa who were the key figures in bringing popularity back into the sport after the lowpoint of the 94 strike.
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#1980251 - 02/05/09 10:59 AM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: The elder]
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Along the lines of Kent's retirement, what about Greg Maddux....is he a shoe in for the Hall? In my opinion, most definitely! What do you think?
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#1980256 - 02/05/09 11:54 AM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: EARLSWORLD]
bbo
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First ballot lock.

Dominant within his peer group, 350 wins, one World Championship and numerous pennant winning teams. Parlayed the art and science of pitching into a fabulous career. Although he did get a lot of help from umpires who expanded the strike zone. No matter, Maddux could knock a flea off a gnat's butt from 60.5 feet.

No doubt that he will get the required 75% on his first try.
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#1980266 - 02/05/09 02:34 PM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: bbo]
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 Originally Posted By: bbo
First ballot lock.

Dominant within his peer group, 350 wins, one World Championship and numerous pennant winning teams. Parlayed the art and science of pitching into a fabulous career. Although he did get a lot of help from umpires who expanded the strike zone. No matter, Maddux could knock a flea off a gnat's butt from 60.5 feet.

No doubt that he will get the required 75% on his first try.
I totally agree with you, bbo! I have the painful memory of just how lethal and umpire expansive his strike zone was against the Indians in the 1995 World Series. He dominated everyone that year and had a LOT of wide strikes called for him in the N.L. Even still, he was great to watch at the height of his illustrious career. Always a sensational and outstanding pitcher who will garner a first ballot vote to get in! Used to be 300 wins was a lock! And in my book, it still is. It still holds as much weight as it always has, unlike hitting 500 homers.
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#1980272 - 02/05/09 03:04 PM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: EARLSWORLD]
The elder
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First ballot lock no doubt. He's got 4 or 5 cy youngs no?
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#1980273 - 02/05/09 03:09 PM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: The elder]
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 Originally Posted By: The elder
First ballot lock no doubt. He's got 4 or 5 cy youngs no?
GREG MADDUX RETIRES

Awards
1992-NL-CYA
1992-NL-TSN Pitcher of the Year
1993-NL-CYA
1993-NL-TSN Pitcher of the Year
1994-NL-CYA
1994-NL-TSN Pitcher of the Year
1995-NL-CYA
1995-NL-TSN Pitcher of the Year
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#1980281 - 02/05/09 04:17 PM Re: JEFF KENT RETIRES / IS HE BOUND FOR THE HOF? [Re: EARLSWORLD]
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I agree with you guys Maddux is quality and has been from the start!
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