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#1991866 - 12/08/09 01:11 AM Re: I'm done with lower grade Goudey PSAs! [Re: aconte]
castaways
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Registered: 06/14/09
Posts: 24

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Good luck with your endeavor on the Goudey sets. I too have recently started collecting a pre-war (T205) set. I have submitted 11 cards that were in PSA holders to SGC (only after cracking them out). I will be sending some in holders this month to take advantage of their monthly special. Out of the 11, 8 transitioned over exactly and 3 had changes .Here are my results:

PSA 3 - SGC A - Reulbach (trimmed)
PSA 1 - SCG 20
PSA 1 - SGC 20

Again good luck.
r/
Frank

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#1991867 - 12/08/09 04:05 AM Re: I'm done with lower grade Goudey PSAs! [Re: castaways]
Irwin Fletcher
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 499
Loc: New Jersey

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Frank,

Nice job getting the .5 bumps on those two T205s. And good luck putting together the set. Having been away from the hobby for many years, I'm really having fun putting together the Goudey sets.

I should probably have mentioned that all of my cross-overs have been submitted in their original PSA holders.

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#1991874 - 12/08/09 11:09 AM Re: I'm done with lower grade Goudey PSAs! [Re: Irwin Fletcher]
castaways
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Registered: 06/14/09
Posts: 24

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Irwin,

I too had been away for several years. Last collected in the late 80's when I got married. Now I'm a little more stable and was ready to get back into it. I'm currently halfway through the set and have had a blast doing it. Not to mention having these boards available for us collectors to share our experiences and inform others of questionable sellers.

r/
Frank

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#1991881 - 12/08/09 01:48 PM Re: I'm done with lower grade Goudey PSAs! [Re: VANSLYKEFAN18]
Irwin Fletcher
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Loc: New Jersey

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I agree about the PSA qualifiers - I am not a fan. The card should grade based on all of its characteristics. If an otherwise nice card gets downgraded due to a mark, that's the way it should be.
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#1991922 - 12/09/09 01:00 PM Re: I'm done with lower grade Goudey PSAs! [Re: Irwin Fletcher]
Brian C
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Registered: 12/07/09
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Results are back on my SGC to PSA crossover. These were logged at PSA on 12/1/09 and grades popped today on 12/9/09. 8 day turnaround for a $5 special is just fine in my book. Now we'll see how long Registered Mail takes to get the cards back in my hands during the XMAS season. I'm thinking it might be a while but who knows. In general results are fairly consistent between companies. Some things stand out though. Here are the results, comments to follow:

HOME RUN BAKER SGC 30 PSA 2 0
NEAL BALL SGC 40 PSA 3 0
SHAD BARRY SGC 30 PSA 3 MK 0 now with qualifier
JACK BASTIAN SGC 40 PSA 3 0
JOHNNY BATES SGC 40 PSA 2.5 -0.5
BEALS BECKER SGC 40 PSA 4 1
JAKE BECKLEY SGC 30 PSA 2 0
BILL BRADLEY SGC 40 PSA 3 0
BILL BRADLEY SGC 40 PSA 3.5 0.5
PETER CASSIDY SGC 40 PSA 2.5 -0.5
MICKEY DOOLAN SGC 40 PSA 3 0
GUS DORNER SGC 40 PSA 4 1
KID ELBERFELD SGC 40 PSA 4 1
JOHN HUMMEL SGC 30 PSA 3 1
RUBE KISINGER SGC 40 PSA 3 0
SHERRY MAGEE SGC 40 PSA 3 0
DOC MARSHALL SGC 40 PSA 4.5 1.5
PRYOR McELVEEN SGC 50 PSA 4 0
DAN McGANN SGC 40 PSA 2.5 -0.5
HARRY McINTYRE SGC 50 PSA 3.5 -0.5
CHIEF MEYERS SGC 60 PSA 4.5 -0.5
GEORGE MULLIN SGC 40 PSA 4 1
TOM NEEDHAM SGC 40 PSA 3 0
RUBE OLDRING SGC 50 PSA 2 -2
ORVAL OVERALL SGC 40 PSA 2 -1
FRANCIS PFEFFER SGC 40 PSA 3 0
ED REULBACH SGC 40 PSA 3.5 0.5
LOU RITTER SGC 40 PSA 4 1
BOSS SCHMIDT SGC 40 PSA 3 0
CY SEYMOUR SGC 30 EOT -2 What? SGC slabbed a trimmed card?
JEFF SWEENEY SGC 40 PSA 2 -1
LEE TANNEHILL SGC 40 PSA 5 2
JESSE TANNEHILL SGC 40 PSA 3 0
DOC WHITE SGC 40 PSA 3 0
JIMMY WILLIAMS GAI 3 PSA 3.5 0.5

The bad. Got one card back EOT. I did not have time to really look at the card before it went to PSA but I can assure I did not trim it once I took it out of the SGC holder. I'll have to take a good look at it when it comes back.

Only one card came back with a qualifier. Technically the grades are identical (PSA 3 MK = PSA 2 = SGC 30) but I prefer cards with NQ so this one will be replaced. I prefer that PSA tells me there is a problem with the card. SGC "hides" this fact by not stating the reason for the SGC 30. It's OK to disagree on this point but I prefer having more information rather than less.

One card dropped 2 grades. SGC 50 to a PSA 2. Could this be the famous Crack and Resubmit Business model at work? Again, I need to get the card back in hand.

One card dropped 1 grade. SGC 40 to PSA 2.

Five cards dropped 0.5 grade. Kind of. Since SGC doesn't have a half point system we can't really compare apples to apples. The grades are lower though.

The Good:

2 cards went up 0.5 grade. Kind of again. See above. One additional card went up 0.5 that was originally a GAI card.

6 cards went up 1 grade.

1 cards went up 1.5 grade. SGC 40 to PSA 4.5

1 card went up 2 grades. SGC 40 to PSA 5

Only 15 of the 35 cards came back truly identical grades.

Comments? Grades were higher than I expected.

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#1991933 - 12/09/09 05:31 PM Re: I'm done with lower grade Goudey PSAs! [Re: Brian C]
VANSLYKEFAN18
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Registered: 04/25/08
Posts: 868
Loc: Staten Island, NY

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Good info Brian!!

I would expect that PSA would typically grade higher than SGC, so the results do not shock me.

I respect your opinion about the qualifier, however I do not think SGC is "hiding" anything. They will always explain why a card graded they way it did. And then if you choose to re-sell, of course the information should be disclosed. Just my opinion.

Congrats on the grades, keep posting your results!!

Thanks - Rob

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#1991938 - 12/09/09 06:12 PM Re: I'm done with lower grade Goudey PSAs! [Re: Irwin Fletcher]
EARLSWORLD Administrator
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Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 1929

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 Originally Posted By: Irwin Fletcher
I've mentioned a few times on this board that I am in the process of putting together low to mid-grade SGC Registry Sets of 1933 Goudey and 1935 Goudey. When I started these sets earlier this year, I was frustrated by the lack of SGC graded examples available on eBay in auction format and most sellers (with a few exceptions, such as Joe's Vintage Sportscards) had very unreasonable BIN prices. So I started snatching up PSA 3 and 4 examples through auctions with the intention of crossing them over to SGC. The results so far have not been good. Here they are:

1933 Goudey
#4 Schuble - PSA 3 ---> SGC 30
#9 Harris - PSA 3 ---> SGC 40
#10 Myatt - PSA 4 ---> SGC 40
#13 Thompson - PSA 3 ---> SGC 40
#15 Sorrell - PSA 3 ---> SGC 40
#17 Clark - PSA 3 ---> SGC 40
#18 Ruel - PSA 4 ---> SGC 50
#32 Clancy - PSA 4 ---> SGC 40
#45 Benton - PSA 4 ---> SGC 40
#91 Zachary - PSA 3 ---> SGC 40

1935 Goudey (4-in-1)
Dickey, etc. - PSA 5.5 ---> SGC 70
Brandt, etc. - PSA 5 ---> SGC 60
Cronin, etc. - PSA 5 ---> SGC 50

(Thank goodness the Dickey crossed over)

Out of the 13 PSAs that I submitted for cross-over, 8 received the same grade, 5 were downgraded 1 grade, and zero were upgraded. Not a good showing for PSA and it doesn't give me much confidence in PSA's ability to accurately grade lower-grade prewar cards.

I guess the moral of the story, which I've heard on this board before, is "buy the card, not the holder." Unless, in my opinion, the card is in an SGC holder. It's only SGC-graded, higher grade PSAs, or good-looking raw cards for me going forward.

I guess this has been a good learning experience for me (I'm new to the vintage card thing) as I am taking a much closer look at cards in PSA holders before buying/bidding. It has also affirmed my confidence in SGC's high standards for quality and consistency in grading.

I have a few more '33 cross-overs submitted to SGC - I'll update this post once those have been graded.

Has anyone had similar experiences with crossing over from PSA?

Hi Irwin...it has been my limited experience in learning that PSA cards have a high tendency to not make the crossover to SGC more than not, while some others will hold the grade while there is an occasional bump here and there. On the other hand, I believe when crossing over SGC to PSA you will find a higher ratio of grades that get crossed as well as bumped up. However, again, the inconsistencies found with PSA grades gives a variable to the equation that brings a whole lot of guessing into the game. I am with you, I plan on sticking with SGC graded cards for my personal collection and leaving the crossover game to others.
_________________________

BROOKS ROBINSON ~ One of the Greatest to Ever Play the Game!

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#1991939 - 12/09/09 06:18 PM Re: I'm done with lower grade Goudey PSAs! [Re: Brian C]
EARLSWORLD Administrator
Pooh-Bah


Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 1929

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Hi Brian C~

I just wanted to comment about the EOT you received from PSA...if you frequent the CU board you will find many postings where people cracked out PSA cards to see if they could get a bump only to get the card back EOT! It never surprises me when a card comes back with this distinction because when you send it back and have it regraded...you will probably get the grade it should have received to begin with!

EARL
_________________________

BROOKS ROBINSON ~ One of the Greatest to Ever Play the Game!

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#1991941 - 12/09/09 06:45 PM Re: I'm done with lower grade Goudey PSAs! [Re: EARLSWORLD]
Brian C
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 9

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A couple of responses:

1. I think it is great that SGC will communicate why a card receives a certain grade. If this is in fact the case then they are providing a great service to their submitters. I am surprised but pleased. However, I feel as a potential buyer of cards that I should not and will not call SGC to question the grade of every card I am considering buying to see if there is a qualifier that could be associated with a card which is not on the flip. I agree that the card technically deserves the lower grade because of the issue with the card. PSA scores the card lower in their set registry and their pop reports due to the qualifier. A PSA 3 MK is not the same as a PSA 3. They consider it a PSA 2 which is what SGC graded the card. I feel this is a more open process. I just wish SGC would state the issue on the flip. As I said before, we can agree to disagree.

2. I totally agree that PSA frequently rejects cards as EOT. I also agree that often these cards are not trimmed. I also agree that PSA often screws up and grades trimmed cards. I believe they are trying to catch trimmed cards and would rather they err on the side of caution. If there is question they should reject. However I know that SGC does the same thing. There was a thread recently about a T206 Cobb that SGC graded. PSA rejected for EOT. SGC subsequently agreed the card was trimmed. If we take the owner at his word that he did not trim the card then we have to also accept that SGC slabbed a trimmed card. I feel that both companies try to prevent this from happening but neither is perfect. I expect that if I re-submit my EOT card to SGC or PSA that it will grade. I'm OK with them being cautious, otherwise we get too much Scott Susor type cards slabbed and sold as unaltered when we all know better.

3. Looking at the grades I received today I ended up netting out 2 points of increase on a total of 34 cards for my T206 crossovers. Most of these were due to 0.5 point bumps that SGC does not offer. Remove the 0.5 bumps and my cards went down. There was also a crossover for 1941 Goudey which scored lower by PSA (SGC 30 to PSA 1.5). In my opinion the majority of the difference is the 1/2 point grading scale that PSA adopted a couple of years ago. Without that new scale things would be much more similar than I had expected. Still, the differences are startling.

Summary:
10 went up
15 stayed the ame
9 went down

That looks a lot like a bell curve to me.


Edited by Brian C (12/09/09 06:52 PM)

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#1991942 - 12/09/09 07:09 PM Re: I'm done with lower grade Goudey PSAs! [Re: Brian C]
Irwin Fletcher
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 499
Loc: New Jersey

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Brian,

The information from and analysis of your crossover submission is really interesting - thank you for posting it.

As I mentioned a few posts ago, I have four more '33 Goudey PSAs in front of SGC now - I expect they will pop early next week. Three are PSA 4 and one is PSA 3. I'll update my original list with those once I have the grades.

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