#2007990 - 05/08/12 12:44 PM
Re: A Tribute to Sandy Koufax...My Childhood Idol
[Re: cammb]
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K-dog
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Registered: 11/03/09
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Coo! Sandy and Pedro, 2 of my favorite movie characters of all time! 
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#2007992 - 05/08/12 04:33 PM
Re: A Tribute to Sandy Koufax...My Childhood Idol
[Re: K-dog]
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gaugman
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Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 295
Loc: new jersey
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Wow! With all due respect,,, if you think there’s no comparison than maybe you need a history lesson. Koufax was great. There’s no question. To say there’s no comparison is just foolish.
Pedro pitched in the steroid era. In a hitters ball park and with the DH.
It is impossible to compare a player from one generation against a player from another, but that shouldn't stop us.
Cammb says Koufax last year is better than any of Martinez’s. Lets compare.
Some say Pedro’s best season was 1999
In 1966 Kaufax’s ERA was 1.73. Cuellar was second with 2.22. There were 10 pitchers in the NL with an ERA under 3.00
Pedro in 1999 had an ERA of 2.07. Only one other pitcher had an ERA under 3.50.
K’s? Kaufax had 317. Eight other NL pitchers had over 200 strikeouts.
Pedro had 313. Only one other pitcher in the AL had at least 200.
Koufax won 27 games. Marichal won 25 and three others in the NL won 20 or more.
Matinez won 23. The guy in second won 18
It was a different time. Kaufax pitched an amazing 323 innings with two other pitchers throwing 300 plus and Pedro only 213, but the league leader had only 231. BTW, that’s 313 strikeouts in 213 innings.
It’s a different game today so comparing K’s and innings pitched really isn’t fair but if you compare each to their peers, in a lot of cases it isn’t even close.
I think Martinez’s 2000 season maybe the greatest season ever by a pitcher. His 1.74 ERA was 3.33 runs lower than the American League average (5.07) and nearly two runs lower than the pitcher with the second lowest ERA (Clemens 3.70). As was mentioned before. Pedro's 8.88 strikeout-to-walk ratio was 3.33 better than the next highest mark. He had more than twice as many strikeouts (284) than hits allowed (128) and held opposing batters to a .167 average, the lowest in major league history. All with the DH and pitching in Fenway
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#2007994 - 05/08/12 05:40 PM
Re: A Tribute to Sandy Koufax...My Childhood Idol
[Re: gaugman]
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cammb
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Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 811
Loc: Jamesport, NY
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I guess only hitters were on steroids when Martinez pitched. I can make the case that the pitching stunk in the Martinez era. Look at all of Koufax,s contempoaries. A lot of them in the hof. Why do yopu discount innings pitched?? Will anyone today ever pitch 300 innings? Sorry there is no compariosn. Maybe you would think different if you in facr saw Koufax pitch. By the way, what does a Martinez rookie card go for?
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#2007995 - 05/08/12 06:15 PM
Re: A Tribute to Sandy Koufax...My Childhood Idol
[Re: cammb]
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bbo
The Collectinator
Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 3102
Loc: Top of the 1959 Registry
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Here's a list, but what do these guys know?
Top 25
And another list
_________________________
#1 in 1959 Topps
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#2007997 - 05/08/12 09:16 PM
Re: A Tribute to Sandy Koufax...My Childhood Idol
[Re: bbo]
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Blackie
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 12/23/08
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Loc: Southern US
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The Mechanics.......
Edited by Blackie (05/08/12 09:18 PM)
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#2008000 - 05/09/12 04:48 AM
Re: A Tribute to Sandy Koufax...My Childhood Idol
[Re: Blackie]
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gaugman
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Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 295
Loc: new jersey
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Will anyone pitch 300 innings in today’s game? Probably not.
Maybe Koufax's career would have lasted longer if he didn't throw so many innings in a season.
With todays contracts they protect the players.
I'm sure we all have an opinion on that one too.
In 1963 Marichal pitched against Spahn each going the distance in a 16 inning game with Marichal throwing 227 pitches. Will it ever happen again?
No.
Could one make the case that the hitters stunk?
You say you can make a case that the pitchers stunk when Pedro pitched?
What if I made the case that Koufax’s career didn’t take off until 1963 when they widened the strike zone which went from the top of the armpit to the knee?
Do you think it’s just coincidence that Koufax’s best years were in between 1963 and 1968 when it was the so called, Pitcher’s Era?
Raised mound and all
I wouldn't say that, but some do.
That he benefited from pitching in Dodger stadium which has the lowest run index of any ballpark in the game’s history? Just look up his home/away splits.
I don’t want to bash on Sandy Koufax because he’s one of the all time greats. A hero to many. I’m just pointing out that we all had a chance to witness greatness with Pedro and to just discount that is, well…….
BBO? You and your ridiculous lists. Lists are nothing but opinion's which I know you are in no short supply of.
As far as rookie cards? Really?
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#2008001 - 05/09/12 04:59 AM
Re: A Tribute to Sandy Koufax...My Childhood Idol
[Re: Blackie]
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Irwin Fletcher
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 499
Loc: New Jersey
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Well said, gaugman. I agree. My only disagreement with what you wrote is that you actually can compare players from different eras. For pitchers, there is adjusted ERA+, which is a great stat that adjusts for the pitcher's home park and compares the pitcher's ERA against the ERA of his peers, thereby allowing us to see how dominant a pitcher of one era was compared to a pitcher of another era, at least in terms of run prevention (which is the name of the game for pitchers).
An adjusted ERA+ of 100 is league average. Every number above 100 represents that pitcher's ERA being 1 percent better than that of his peers.
Pedro has the highest career ERA+ in history for a starting pitcher with 154, which means that, over his entire career, his ERA was 54 percent better than that of his peers. Koufax's career ERA+ is 131 or 31 percent better than his peers, a very strong career total. Pedro also owns the highest single season ERA+ since 1880 when he posted a whopping 291 in 2000.
(For those who are curious, the highest career ERA+ belongs to Mariano Rivera with an incredible 206 - Pedro's 154 is second all-time).
One other issue - I'm not sure how seeing Koufax pitch affects this debate. Seeing a pitcher pitch does not change his statistics. One of the great things about baseball is that it lends itself to objective measures of a player's skill. We need not rely on our subjective memories of the perceived greatness of a player. For example, I think Walter Johnson and Lefty Grove are the two greatest pitchers of all time (in that order), but I certainly didn't have to see them play to come to that conclusion.
Also, I do not discount the incredible amount of innings pitched by Koufax - that is a huge mark on his side of the ledger. It just isn't enough to make him better than Pedro.
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#2008002 - 05/09/12 06:21 AM
Re: A Tribute to Sandy Koufax...My Childhood Idol
[Re: Irwin Fletcher]
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K-dog
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I don't get into these sort of discussions by taking one side or the other...but since we are talking about pitching mechanics:
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#2008003 - 05/09/12 06:58 AM
Re: A Tribute to Sandy Koufax...My Childhood Idol
[Re: Irwin Fletcher]
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cammb
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Registered: 12/30/10
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Loc: Jamesport, NY
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That era+ stat only verifies that Koufax pitched against better opponents. You cannot discount the advantage of seeing both pitchers pitch. It is another measure of comparison in which you and your compadre evidently cannot attest to.
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