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#2010939 - 09/14/12 05:42 PM Guess the grade
bbo
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After a PM conversation with trex, I decided to put up here a "guess the grade" card.

This 1964 Boog Powell was sent in three (3) times and got three different grades. I finally gave up and here it is in its permanent tomb.

Question: What is the grade now? I'll reveal the answer before Sunday Night Football kickoff.

No prizes, just interested in the board members' opinions. There is obviously no "right" answer since the grading geniuses couldn't agree.


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#2010944 - 09/14/12 06:44 PM Re: Guess the grade [Re: bbo]
brick
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PSA 8
PSA 7
SGC 86
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#2010945 - 09/14/12 06:48 PM Re: Guess the grade [Re: brick]
33rdStreet
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I'm guessing a psa 7.5. Looks like a slight nick above the W on the reverse.
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#2010946 - 09/14/12 07:02 PM Re: Guess the grade [Re: 33rdStreet]
Blackie
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Psa 7
Psa 8
Psa 8
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#2010948 - 09/14/12 08:38 PM Re: Guess the grade [Re: bbo]
cammb
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PSA 7
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#2010949 - 09/14/12 08:54 PM Re: Guess the grade [Re: cammb]
Mintacular
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psa 8
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#2010950 - 09/14/12 10:56 PM Re: Guess the grade [Re: Mintacular]
yankeeno7
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Im going to guess a 6 due to that tiny indentation on the back.
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#2010953 - 09/15/12 05:21 AM Re: Guess the grade [Re: bbo]
trex
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 Originally Posted By: bbo
Don't PM him to ask either, since he is of the highest moral turpitude.)


Moral turpitude????? Damn I hate it when I have to look up the meaning of words. Especially this early in the morning and without my first cup of coffee.

Moral turpitude is a legal concept in the United States that refers to "conduct that is considered contrary to community standards of justice, honesty or good morals." It appears in U.S. immigration law from the nineteenth century. In other common law jurisdictions it is dated or obsolete.

The concept of moral turpitude escapes precise definition but has been described as an "act of baseness, vileness or depravity in the private and social duties which a man owes to his fellowmen, or to society in general, contrary to the accepted and customary rule of right and duty between man and man."

So, I guess what I glean from this, since were not talking about immigration law, the concept is dated or obsolete.

If it wasn't dated or obsolete, guess that would dash any thoughts of ever becoming a TPG'er for me.

This will be good though.
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#2010954 - 09/15/12 05:28 AM Re: Guess the grade [Re: bbo]
trex
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Since I can't reveal the answer, can I give my thoughts on the card Sunday evening?
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#2010955 - 09/15/12 05:34 AM Re: Guess the grade [Re: trex]
bbo
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.

Edited by bbo (09/16/12 04:40 AM)
Edit Reason: keep on track
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#2010956 - 09/15/12 05:53 AM Re: Guess the grade [Re: bbo]
cammb
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Isnt that he name of Univ Maryland team, the Turpitudes?
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#2010957 - 09/15/12 06:35 AM Re: Guess the grade [Re: bbo]
33rdStreet
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This is a perfect example of why grading is subjective. I'd say everyone that posts on here has a good eye and for the most part has been collecting for years. We have grades being guessed ranging between 6 and 8. That's a five grade window. I can't remember who posted it but I would love to see the graders at SGC or PSA come out and let us know EXACTLY what constitutes a certain grade. There has to be a strict guideline they are told to follow regarding certain imperfections. I know they have grading standards posted but there a little vague IMO.
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#2010958 - 09/15/12 06:36 AM Re: Guess the grade [Re: bbo]
trex
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 Originally Posted By: bbo
I didn't look it up either. I just like saying it. Based on the definition, I owe you an apology. I apologize. I guess I should have said you LACK moral turpitude. [But that sounds worse, so I better shut up.]

As for Sunday night comments, sure, have at it. It would be the turpitudinal thing to do.


People get sued for making baseless allegations, especially when they start tossing around damaging words and phrases they don't know the meaning of. A dictionary and/or thesaurus are both relatively cheap or you can pull up both on-line for free. When compared to attorney fees for defending such over-the-top allegations, one would think this would be cheap insurance.

That being said, apology accepted. I know you had to have choked getting that out. I did, and now I have recycled coffee all over my keyboard.

I look forward to making comments Sunday evening as it would be the un-turpitudinal thing to do.
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#2010959 - 09/15/12 07:03 AM Re: Guess the grade [Re: trex]
bbo
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.

Edited by bbo (09/16/12 04:40 AM)
Edit Reason: Keep on track
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#2010960 - 09/15/12 07:17 AM Re: Guess the grade [Re: bbo]
trex
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 Originally Posted By: bbo
Wouldn't you have to prove you were damaged? Loss of income, stature in community, etc? Message board banter might be tough to collect on. Especially in a community this small.


In the lawsuit happy world we live in today? Surely you can't be serious. Didn't someone sue McDonald's because the customer was clumsy and spilled coffee on their self? Well, I could say your damaging comments caused me to regurgitate coffee on my keyboard, frying the thing, and I had to go out in the rain, further endangering myself, to purchase a new keyboard. Oh, and I slipped on on my wet porch going out, and now have a slipped disc requiring a neck brace until I can seek medical attention.

All because of a reckless, irresponsible allegation.

Forgot one other thing, being a senior citizen, I'm in a protected class also.


Edited by trex (09/15/12 07:19 AM)
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#2010961 - 09/15/12 07:28 AM Re: Guess the grade [Re: trex]
bbo
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Edited by bbo (09/16/12 04:41 AM)
Edit Reason: Keep on track
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#1 in 1959 Topps. Officially known as Assassin according to stanthemanfan 3/31/2014 and god of minor league basketball according to cammb.

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#2010962 - 09/15/12 07:40 AM Re: Guess the grade [Re: trex]
bbo
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Edited by bbo (09/16/12 04:41 AM)
Edit Reason: Keep on track
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#2010963 - 09/15/12 07:49 AM Re: Guess the grade [Re: bbo]
trex
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Touche.
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#2010964 - 09/15/12 09:30 AM Re: Guess the grade [Re: 33rdStreet]
trex
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 Originally Posted By: 33rdStreet
This is a perfect example of why grading is subjective. I'd say everyone that posts on here has a good eye and for the most part has been collecting for years. We have grades being guessed ranging between 6 and 8. That's a five grade window. I can't remember who posted it but I would love to see the graders at SGC or PSA come out and let us know EXACTLY what constitutes a certain grade. There has to be a strict guideline they are told to follow regarding certain imperfections. I know they have grading standards posted but there a little vague IMO.


I think a good part of grading is subjective, however two items are not, size of the card and centering. These two items are measurable and should be and I can see no excuse whatsoever for ever getting these two wrong, other than laziness, incompetence, lack of quality control, etc., etc. I can accept no reason why an undersized card ever gets into a slab...period.

Surface issues, imperfect edges, corner issues, print defects to me anyway is where the subjectivity comes in. Now you're dealing in degrees of issues with the card and virtually everyone is going to see it differently. There are standards for creases, should no higher than VG/EX, for the slightest of crease, no higher than VG for a heavier crease. Wrinkles, even the slightest should be no higher then EX, I would say no higher than VG/EX. Rough cut edges edge issues in general, and print defects bother me a lot but both SGC and PSA don't seem to pay that much attention to either. So, what would be bothersome to me, wouldn't be to others. I would imagine graders are the same way. I would think corner issues are highly contentious. While it looks bad to me, how do you put degrees on it and adjust the overall grade of the card accordingly? I've had cards that I thought had pretty decent corners for the grade, until I go them under the loupe, then I'm saying how in the world did this card get graded so high with these corners. But then again, I'm hard on corners. Others probably not so much. Surface gloss, lack thereof to me should be a real eye-catcher, along with register, but PSA doesn't seem to put a whole lot of importance in these two issues. These issues people are going to see differently, thus subjectivity.

That's just my humble opinion, no more, no less and some will agree, some will disagree...subjectivity.
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#2010974 - 09/15/12 04:35 PM Re: Guess the grade [Re: trex]
SMtJoy
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Here is one I remembered that I saved a scan just cause I felt is was over the top. I just could not really get how this could get a 5 even with the qualifier-


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#2010980 - 09/15/12 06:03 PM Re: Guess the grade [Re: SMtJoy]
bbo
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Edited by bbo (09/16/12 07:58 PM)
Edit Reason: Keep on track
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#2010992 - 09/16/12 04:35 AM Re: Guess the grade [Re: bbo]
bbo
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Bought raw, then it was subbed three times: first a 7.5, then 7, now 8. No one likes to resub over and over again; however, I've still spent less in grading fees than what I've seen 8's sell for on eBay. So AFAIC, it was a good strategy. For those who have been at this "game" long enough, it's common knowledge that graders across the street rarely take into account the back of the card unless it's creased, written on or missing paper.

The wide range of guesses proves the point that all aspects of grading is subjective. Yes, Virginia, even centering and card size have tolerance ranges. PSA and SGC both say so in their guidelines. Presentation sets are believed to be 1/32" shorter top/bottom for instance.

So this Powell is a perfect example of (1) why grade, (2) why keep raw, (3) differences of opinion do exist, and (4) it's my card and I can do whatever I want with/to it. Thanks for playing. The winner is Mintacular since the question was what is the grade now and he answered "8".

Technically, the grade is correct at 8. I can understand the 7.5, but not the 7. I kept it for over a year at 7.5, happy with the card regardless. I added it to a friend's invoice to get to a breakpoint of 25 or 50 cards, hoping it might go 8, never guessing they'd knock it down to 7. When it came back 7, I couldn't crack it out fast enough to try again. Loaded it into a large invoice for him to submit at the National.

The photo area is unblemished and untouched. Centering even with very slight tilt is well within tolerance. Upper left corner is the worst, but allowable for an 8. Rough cut is a non-issue. Minor print smudges are just that, minor and not in the photo area. The single fisheye in the "L" in Orioles is allowable even for a 9 or 10. Focus and register is outstanding, if not near perfect. The deep colors and surface gloss (for which a flat scan doesn't do it justice) is what won me over when I obtained the card and probably is what won the grader over the third time around.

Photobucket
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#1 in 1959 Topps. Officially known as Assassin according to stanthemanfan 3/31/2014 and god of minor league basketball according to cammb.

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#2011080 - 09/19/12 04:31 PM Re: Guess the grade [Re: bbo]
CTROOP11
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Thanks for the info on fisheye and print smudges, does SGC grade similarly? Even on backs? I have about 100 star cards from 70s opc hockey I like to grade but afraid of these imperfections (not sure it is worth it).
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#2011083 - 09/19/12 05:43 PM Re: Guess the grade [Re: CTROOP11]
bbo
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My personal opinion is SGC is fairly easy on fisheyes, if it's just one or two and doesn't detract too terribly from the important parts of the card. I would think they are even more lenient on the backs, but I don't spend a lot of time worrying the backs.

Print marks and smudges are an entirely different matter. I think SGC is overly critical of stray print marks and smudges. Many of the 1959 2nd series cards have them (the yellow background cards such as Koufax, and the Rookie Prospect subset, #116-146). Bottom line, if the print defect bugs you, don't grade it. The grader will probably notice it, too.
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