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#2011093 - 09/20/12 04:37 AM Problem with grading-in general
bbo
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These two cards exhibit one of the inherent problems with grading. How can both of these cards be Pr-Fr 1?

52 Mantle

Different Mantle - same grade
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#2011094 - 09/20/12 05:02 AM Re: Problem with grading-in general [Re: bbo]
33rdStreet
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There has to be a bottom....a grade you cant get any lower than. If the first Mantle was anything higher we'd all probably say NO WAY look at the papper loss, numerous creases and a pick it apart. The second is just a complete mess, not sure what PSA was suppose to put on that card.....maybe they should have a condition stating that if a card is bordering on destroyed that it can only be holdered as authentic.
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#2011095 - 09/20/12 05:04 AM Re: Problem with grading-in general [Re: 33rdStreet]
33rdStreet
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I'm beating that the crease on the first card is completly through it. Probably ripped. Just a guess.
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#2011096 - 09/20/12 05:40 AM Re: Problem with grading-in general [Re: 33rdStreet]
vintagetoppsguy
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We’ve all heard it said many times that grading is subjective. BS! It doesn’t have to be. There are ways to take a lot of the guess work out of it.

When I bought my fiancée her engagement ring, in the process I learned a lot about diamonds. The diamond I bought was GIA Certified (not to be confused with GAI) and I got a report with the diamond. The reported listed the characteristics of the diamond – cut, color, clarity, carat weight, etc.

How hard would it be to do this with card grading? Beckett sort of attempted it for a while and whether you’re a Beckett supporter or not, you have to admit that was a good idea. I don’t know why they stopped? If graders were to do this and give a report with the card, we may not always agree with the grade, but at least we can get an idea of what they saw when they looked at it.

Some of the attributes on which to grade would be corners, registration, color, edges, front surface, back surface, centering, etc. Really, how much extra time would this take to evaluate and record? I know I would pay more money for this service. As it stands, until the grading companies can take most of the guess work out of it (and I know they can), I will submit very few cards.

Go Raw!
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Collecting 1965 Topps High #'s SGC 88 or better: 10/91

BUYING Well Centered:
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#2011097 - 09/20/12 05:56 AM Re: Problem with grading-in general [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
33rdStreet
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Then it would take half a year to get your cards back!

I like that Beckett attempts to give grades for individual characteristics but then we'd all get irritated about how those average out and about which one is more important than the other. I do agree that they could give details about how and why the card recieved a given grade. If this ever happens we all know they'd just charge a crazy fee for the service. Then that will be the new THING and it would only confuse this already confusing part of the hobby.

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#2011098 - 09/20/12 06:40 AM Re: Problem with grading-in general [Re: 33rdStreet]
SMtJoy
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I don't have any issues with the grading of both Mantles, the grading company is just judging the flaws on each card and if they add up to only a Poor then that's what it should be graded. Also we each have aspects of a card (like centering, focus, etc) we can accept and things we can not and that's outside the realm of strictly grading flaws on a card.

Here is my example, paid a pretty premium for it as its so sharp on the front but it was in a scrapbook and has 4 spots of paper loss on the back. To me its just a great card for the money!


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#2011099 - 09/20/12 08:37 AM Re: Problem with grading-in general [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
trex
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 Originally Posted By: vintagetoppsguy
We’ve all heard it said many times that grading is subjective. BS! It doesn’t have to be. There are ways to take a lot of the guess work out of it.

When I bought my fiancée her engagement ring, in the process I learned a lot about diamonds. The diamond I bought was GIA Certified (not to be confused with GAI) and I got a report with the diamond. The reported listed the characteristics of the diamond – cut, color, clarity, carat weight, etc.

How hard would it be to do this with card grading? Beckett sort of attempted it for a while and whether you’re a Beckett supporter or not, you have to admit that was a good idea. I don’t know why they stopped? If graders were to do this and give a report with the card, we may not always agree with the grade, but at least we can get an idea of what they saw when they looked at it.

Some of the attributes on which to grade would be corners, registration, color, edges, front surface, back surface, centering, etc. Really, how much extra time would this take to evaluate and record? I know I would pay more money for this service. As it stands, until the grading companies can take most of the guess work out of it (and I know they can), I will submit very few cards.

Go Raw!


Somehow I can't see that happening, at least not across the street. Then their incompetence would be showcased and they would be held somewhat accountable for their bs. I just can't see o' Joe ever allowing that to see the light of day.
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#2011100 - 09/20/12 08:39 AM Re: Problem with grading-in general [Re: 33rdStreet]
trex
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 Originally Posted By: 33rdStreet
Then it would take half a year to get your cards back!


If you listen to all the whining from over there, it seems to take that long anyway, so what's another six months.
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#2011102 - 09/20/12 09:03 AM Re: Problem with grading-in general [Re: 33rdStreet]
vintagetoppsguy
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 Originally Posted By: 33rdStreet
Then it would take half a year to get your cards back!


I don't think it would. Beckett was doing it and it didn't seem to slow down their process. My suggestion is only to add a couple of more grading attributes than Beckett used to use. The grader looks at each category and types a number from 1-10 into the computer. A computer generates the flip and/or a certificate detailing what the grader input. How loing would the process take? 2-3 minutes?
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Collecting 1965 Topps High #'s SGC 88 or better: 10/91

BUYING Well Centered:
1956 Topps SGC 84 or Better (or raw equivalent)
1965 Topps SGC 88 or Better (or raw equivalent)

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#2011104 - 09/20/12 09:21 AM Re: Problem with grading-in general [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
33rdStreet
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Vintage,

I would welcome that kind of info on cards I have graded! I hate getting a card back and thinking "What the Hell!" just like all of us. I just am not sure I'd want to pay a crazy fee for it. Now if it came standard as part of a normal submission than I'm all for it. I'd like to see just what a GRADER has to go thru to become a grader. I have been eyeballing cards for 25 years!! Does that qualify me to be at least a low level grader at PSA or SGC or would they higher me and have some snot nosed 22 year old teach me how?

I tend to ramble when I post sorry I do agree with the idea that it could be done and done well I also think Trex is right when he says it wont ever happen.

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#2011107 - 09/20/12 09:48 AM Re: Problem with grading-in general [Re: 33rdStreet]
trex
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Don't get me wrong, I like the idea. I just can't see PSA ever going to it. Too much exposure.
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#2011108 - 09/20/12 10:01 AM Re: Problem with grading-in general [Re: 33rdStreet]
trex
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 Originally Posted By: 33rdStreet

I'd like to see just what a GRADER has to go thru to become a grader.


What are the requirements to be a PSA grader? One question...Are you breathing on your own?
And:

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#2011109 - 09/20/12 10:04 AM Re: Problem with grading-in general [Re: 33rdStreet]
vintagetoppsguy
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 Originally Posted By: 33rdStreet
I have been eyeballing cards for 25 years!! Does that qualify me to be at least a low level grader at PSA or SGC or would they higher me and have some snot nosed 22 year old teach me how?


Amen, brother! I'm in the same boat. I started collecting in 1986. Been doing this for 26 years now. I would put my grading skills up against anyone at PSA, SGC or Beckett.
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Collecting 1965 Topps High #'s SGC 88 or better: 10/91

BUYING Well Centered:
1956 Topps SGC 84 or Better (or raw equivalent)
1965 Topps SGC 88 or Better (or raw equivalent)

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#2011142 - 09/21/12 04:58 AM Re: Problem with grading-in general [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
Toledo Mudhen
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The low end is the low end and both examples are "POOR". The fact that the asking price differential between the 2 is almost 2K speaks volumes as to what the respective owners think of the cards. Is grading supposed to be a "safety net" for "victims" or is it to provide an objective opinion, based on guideleines, on each item presented?
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