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#2011209 - 09/25/12 10:05 AM GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right?
vintagetoppsguy
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I didn't watch the game, but I've watched the replay over and over again and I think the refs got it right. Your thoughts?
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#2011210 - 09/25/12 10:08 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
33rdStreet
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It looked to me like it was GB ball, the angle they had on the replay sucked if you ask me. I can see how they wouldnt have enough to reverse it once they got to the ground you couldnt tell who had possesion. Think there where 4 straight flags on the last drive, I really think the replacement ref's are intimidated, they have made some garbage calls but they all seem to end up helping whatever team is at home
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#2011211 - 09/25/12 10:20 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: 33rdStreet]
IMeddie
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The refs got it wrong.
The offensive pass interference was first and foremost.
The ball was intercepted. There was no simultaneous possession.

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#2011212 - 09/25/12 10:29 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: IMeddie]
33rdStreet
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I didnt care who won last night and I'd probably agree that GB got the shaft just like my Ravens got it in week 2. Someone will get it next week and so on until the real refs come back. Amazing that the NFL cares so little about the fan base which can only be classified as RABID!!
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#2011213 - 09/25/12 10:34 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: IMeddie]
trex
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 Originally Posted By: IMeddie
The refs got it wrong.
The offensive pass interference was first and foremost.
The ball was intercepted. There was no simultaneous possession.


I agree on all three counts. The ref that had the best angle started to wave it off. Then the second ref came in after the players were on the ground and signaled a touchdown. The second ref could not have possibly seen that the GB defensive back clearly had the ball all the way to the ground. Whereas the first ref from his angle should have had a clear view of the play.

Pretty sad day in pro football when the refs stink this bad.
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#2011215 - 09/25/12 11:35 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: trex]
vintagetoppsguy
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Well, maybe my opinion was a little skewed since I don't like the Packers. The only team that I hate worse is New Orleans. So glad they are 0-3.

Edited by vintagetoppsguy (09/25/12 11:35 AM)
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#2011216 - 09/25/12 11:52 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
bbo
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OK, here's the deal. Yes, it was pass interference and yes, the ball was intercepted by the Packers. But replay can't overturn either of those, who controls possession on a catch or missed penalty. Both are judgement calls made on the field during play.

So, to answer your question, the refs on the field got it wrong. The replay refs in the booth made the only decision they could make. That's why the league this morning failed to change the call or the outcome of the game.

The refs (which everyone knew were replacement refs) are part of the game. Packers should've never been in that position if they were good enough to win on the road.

Deal with it. It's part of the game. Life's not fair, taxes aren't fair, football isn't fair.
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#2011221 - 09/25/12 12:27 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
vintagetoppsguy
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 Originally Posted By: bbo
Packers should've never been in that position if they were good enough to win on the road.

Deal with it. It's part of the game. Life's not fair, taxes aren't fair, football isn't fair.


Amen. The ruling from BBO stands, no replay needed.
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#2011222 - 09/25/12 01:04 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
bbo
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I am seriously thinking of changing my forum handle to "The Commish"
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#2011225 - 09/25/12 01:58 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
cammb
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I like the moniker.
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#2011227 - 09/25/12 02:09 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: cammb]
bbo
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If SGC ever decides to make me the Moderator of this board, I will change it to "The Commish." Meanwhile in the weather forecast, there is no chance of hell freezing over any time soon.
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#2011228 - 09/25/12 02:17 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
bbo
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Which reminds me of a joke.

Boudreaux died several years ago and went straight to hell. Satan put him in one of the hottest corners he had since Boudreaux was not a very nice person whilst living on earth.

A few days passed and Satan went to check on old Boudreaux. He was smiling and having a good time, so Satan turned up the heat.

A few days later, Lucifer checked on him again. Boudreaux was fanning himself, but still smiling. The Evil Angel asked him why the heat didn't bother him. Boudreaux replied, "Naw, 'tis nothin' here compared to August in Morgan City. In fact, I like it jus' fine."

Satan could have none of that, so he turned off all the heat and sent the chill winds and a blizzard Boudreaux's way.

After a few days of that, he checked on him once again. Boudreaux was shivering fo' sho', but still smiling, as well as laughing and dancing, singing southern gospel songs.

"What gives?," Satan asked. "It's freezing in here and you're happier than ever."

Boudreaux replied, "Dat's OK. Da way I figure it, dem Saints must've done won da Super Bowl."
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#2011229 - 09/25/12 02:25 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
bbo
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I had a chance to speak to a group of Southern rednecks the other day about the upcoming election. I was trying to prepare them for the worst possible outcome. I remarked that the South had been on the losing side of both of the truly seminal events in the history of our country, losing the Civil War and coming out on the short end of the Civil Rights movement in the 1960's.

One particularly crusty old guy got up from his seat, flipped me off and told me I didn't know what I was talking about as he stormed out of the room.

I apologized to the group for striking such a negative chord with the old man. I told them I never thought he'd still hold a grudge since it's been nearly 50 years since the political mess of the 60's. The fellow who asked me to speak said, "No that's not it. He's still mad about the war."
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#2011243 - 09/25/12 03:31 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
vintagetoppsguy
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 Originally Posted By: bbo
I had a chance to speak to a group of Southern rednecks the other day about the upcoming election. I was trying to prepare them for the worst possible outcome. I remarked that the South had been on the losing side of both of the truly seminal events in the history of our country, losing the Civil War and coming out on the short end of the Civil Rights movement in the 1960's.

One particularly crusty old guy got up from his seat, flipped me off and told me I didn't know what I was talking about as he stormed out of the room.

I apologized to the group for striking such a negative chord with the old man. I told them I never thought he'd still hold a grudge since it's been nearly 50 years since the political mess of the 60's. The fellow who asked me to speak said, "No that's not it. He's still mad about the war."



Ok, no more Brick jokes
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#2011253 - 09/25/12 04:37 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
bbo
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Brick is no redneck. He's from Ohio.
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#2011259 - 09/25/12 05:41 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
gaugman
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The refs got it wrong.

In the end zone, a ruling of a simultaneous catch is reviewable. That is not the case in the field of play, only in the end zone. Everything except for penalties is now reviewable when the play results in a touchdown.

The two announcers and the so called expert ex ref were mistaken when they said during the game that a simultaneous catch was NOT reviewable in the end zone.


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#2011260 - 09/25/12 07:42 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: gaugman]
bbo
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It was not a simultaneous catch. Defender caught it first and Seattle receiver got one hand on it on the way to the turf, then the other hand on it while on the ground. Not a simultaneous catch, it's not reviewable.

Refs got it wrong under either circumstance. Review booth got it right by not overturning it.

Rules. Know that you know them. Then post.
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#2011272 - 09/26/12 04:53 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
gaugman
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The ruling on the field was a simultaneous catch which is why it was ruled a touchdown.

If it had not been ruled a simultaneous catch than it would have been an interception.

Had it been ruled a catch first by the defense and than the “Seattle receiver got one hand on it on the way to the turf then the other hand on it on the way to the ground’, it would have been ruled an interception and a touchback which one ref did signal, but the refs never huddled for conference.


Rule 8 - Section 3 - Article 1 - Item 5: Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.

Before this year a Simutaneous Catch was NOT reviewable on touchdowns. This year in is reviewable.

The Refs on the field got the call wrong and the booth review should have overturned it . IMHO

In case I wasn't clear. I DO NOT THINK IT WAS A SIMULTANEOUS CATCH and the call on the field was wrong.


Edited by gaugman (09/26/12 05:11 AM)

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#2011275 - 09/26/12 05:51 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: gaugman]
vintagetoppsguy
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I believe gaugman got it right. I agree that it was a simultaneous catch. Either way, it WAS a reviewable call because ALL scores are atomatically reviewed by the booth this year - even if it hadn't been a controversy it would have been reviewed.
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#2011278 - 09/26/12 06:17 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
bbo
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Watch the video. It was NOT a simultaneous catch. Clearly the GB defender outjumped all other players and caught the ball with both hands. On the way down, the SEA receiver got one hand up under the ball. The SEA receiver didn't get his other hand on the ball until they were on the ground. The on-field officials got it wrong despite what the League Office says.

The local news station last night interviewed one of the striking officials who walked through an example of a simultaneous catch and said he would have called it an interception/touchback.

Penalties are NOT reviewable. So the call couldn't have been overturned on that.

Regardless, this is Obama's America. Everyone given a fair chance at equal outcomes. The replacement refs are the 99% and the striking refs are the 1%. Leave the replacement refs alone. They also should be given a mortgage that they can't afford. It's only fair.
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#2011279 - 09/26/12 06:29 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
vintagetoppsguy
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Mike, I've watched the video over and over again now and I just don't see it that way. But, let's assume for a minute that it happened exactly as you described. Here's where you're still wrong:

 Originally Posted By: bbo
Clearly the GB defender outjumped all other players and caught the ball with both hands. On the way down, the SEA receiver got one hand up under the ball.


If the GB defender had possession of the ball while jumping up in the air, it is not "possession" until he comes down with the ball (hits the ground). By the time they hit the ground, both the receiver and defender clearly had both hands on the ball. Simultaneous catch goes to the receiver. Refs got it right.


Edited by vintagetoppsguy (09/26/12 06:30 AM)
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#2011280 - 09/26/12 06:32 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
bbo
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Possession vs. control. Who had it throughout the play?

It just doesn't pass the reasonableness test. GB intercepted the ball. Goodell and the League Office are not about to rule against the on-field officials and change the outcome of the game. The review booth doesn't always get it right, but in this situation, in Seattle, they swallowed their whistles too.

What's ironic, is that anyone who's played football, especially defensive back, in that situation, it's best to knock the ball down and NOT intercept it. Jennings was too good, jumped too high and caught the ball.
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#2011281 - 09/26/12 06:57 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
vintagetoppsguy
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 Originally Posted By: bbo
What's ironic, is that anyone who's played football, especially defensive back, in that situation, it's best to knock the ball down and NOT intercept it. Jennings was too good, jumped too high and caught the ball.


Yeah, but remember what happened in the Houston - Jacksonville game a couple of years ago? Glover Quin tried to bat the ball down in the end zone on a last second Hail Mary attempt and actually volleyed it to a Jacksonville receiver who walked it into the end zone.

I like your earlier statement about how GB should have never been in that position in the first place. Bad call or not, they lost the game themselves. And I think it's great as they are the most over rated team in the NFL and Rodgers is the second most over rated QB to ever play the game (behind Brady).
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#2011282 - 09/26/12 07:05 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
33rdStreet
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I don't know if anyone else really caught it but on the first play from scrimmage Rodgers ran for something like 15 yards or so then he made a little hand gesture and just lOoked cocky as he'll doing it...... Then he proceeded to get sacked 8 times! I personally loved that!
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#2011283 - 09/26/12 07:22 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
bbo
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 Originally Posted By: vintagetoppsguy
...the second most over rated QB to ever play the game (behind Brady).


Now you're just being delusional. Ever heard of Bradshaw (look at his numbers)? Without the best receiving core to ever play on the same team and one of the best running combinations (Harris, Bleir), Bradshaw wouldn't have even been a footnote in history.

As for current QB's, Rivers is below Brady and certainly can't hold a candle to him in W/L record and championships. I'm beginning to think Drew Brees may be a bust from here on out. Without Sean Peyton, he's below average. Romo is clearly behind Brady, but I don't think anyone ever overrated Romo.

Brady was a 6th round pick, so how is he over rated? I'd say he over achieved, if anything. Just look at the QB's taken ahead of him: Chad Pennington (MARSHALL), Chris Redman (LOU), Mark Bulger (WV), Tee Martin (TN). There were a few others taken ahead of Brady in that same class, we've never heard of before or since.

Brady has benefitted from great coaching and some above average skill players, but nothing like Bradshaw benefitted from (Chuch Noll, etal). Brady is not the best, but he's waaaaaay better than you give him credit for.

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#2011557 - 10/07/12 08:15 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
bbo
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 Originally Posted By: vintagetoppsguy
Rodgers is the second most over rated QB to ever play the game (behind Brady).


There goes that over-rated Tom Brady, winning another game over the "great" Peyton Manning. Manning is your over-rated QB. Won only one Super Bowl (Brady has won, what, three?) Four year starter in college that never beat Florida, never won a major bowl game and never won a National championship or the Heisman Trophy. The year after he left TN, Tee Martin led the Vols to the first ever BCS championship. Heck, Peyton is barely the second-best QB in his own family, behind Eli and just ahead of daddy-cakes.

Florida coach Stever Spurrier had one of the greatest one-liners regarding TN (and a swipe at Manning) when he said, "You can't spell Citrus Bowl with out "UT."
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#2011558 - 10/07/12 08:48 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
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#2011561 - 10/08/12 05:49 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
vintagetoppsguy
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 Originally Posted By: bbo
never won a major bowl game


Brick? Is that you? Did you hijack Mike's account?

Won '96 and '97 Citrus Bowl. Need more?
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#2011562 - 10/08/12 07:23 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
brick
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When did the Citrus Bowl become a major bowl. Just a notch or two above the Toilet Bowl.
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#2011568 - 10/08/12 10:04 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: brick]
bbo
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Agreed. Brick is right. Before the BCS, if it wasn't a New Year's Day Bowl, it wasn't considered a major bowl. Now with the BCS, the four major bowls are spread out over nearly a week. Citrus is still a bowl for rejects.

If I recall correctly, the only major bowl Manning got a sniff of was the Orange Bowl where Nebraska spanked them 42-17.
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#2011569 - 10/08/12 11:30 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
cammb
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I guess 4 time MVP was just luck!
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#2011570 - 10/08/12 11:44 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: cammb]
bbo
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MVP on his TEAM, maybe. League MVP notoriously goes to stat sheet stuffers. Where's the Super Bowls? One win, one loss. Routinely won in a weak division, AFC South, but has trouble advancing in playoffs. Playoff record 9-10. Compare that to Brady.

Manning is the poster boy for over-rated. Why did he pick Denver? Weak division.
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#2011571 - 10/08/12 11:58 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
vintagetoppsguy
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The two are only 1 year apart in age.

Brady: 6th round pick (199th overall)
Manning: 1st round pick (1st overall)

Brady: (4) 4,000 yard seasons
Manning: (11) 4,000 yard seasons

Brady: 39,979 Total Passing Yards
Manning: 55,061 Total Passing Yards

Brady: 300 Touchdowns
Manning: 401 Touchdowns

How can you measure a quarterback by how many SBs they've won? If that's the case, Marino must have sucked.
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#2011572 - 10/08/12 12:29 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
bbo
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He didn't suck but as the 6th QB taken in the first round of a rich QB draft class in 1983, he was OK. Lots of passing on a team that had trouble running the ball. And very little defensive support. I'd put Manning ahead of Marino, but just barely. I'd also put Brady ahead of them both, if I were starting a team from scratch.

The discussion began when you compared Aaron Rodgers to Tom Brady, saying those two were the most over-rated of QB's. I had no comment on Rodgers. Not enough time to tell. I took issue with your characterization of Brady.

Over-rated means not living up to expectations. Brady CLEARLY exceeded expectations, both in college and the pros. By way of example and comparison, I offer up Peyton Manning. Manning clearly underperformed where it matters, winning post season games and Super Bowl appearances/wins.

Other QB's: Eli Manning-drafted high, succeeded.
Rivers: drafted high, underperformed.
Brees: drafted #1 second round, over-achieved, but needs a coach to seal his fate. Kind of like Marino in that he succeeds in a pass-happy offense. His only SB win, he did outshine Manning. (More fodder for my position that Manning is the over-rated QB.)

If you're going to trash Brady, you look under informed at best. Call him lucky, fortunate, surrounded by great players (though that's debatable), blessed with a great coach. But don't call Brady over-rated. He exceeded expectations and has the brass to prove it.
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#2011737 - 10/15/12 08:06 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
vintagetoppsguy
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If Brady can't even beat Seattle...

Do I really need to go any further?
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#2011738 - 10/15/12 09:15 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
bbo
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Yes, but Rodgers just beat the everloving stuffing out of your 5-0 Texans, tossing six TD passes. So is Rodgers still over rated?

In the SEA-NE game, Wes Welker got clocked big time (I mean leveled in a hurry) and next time down around the goal line he flinched and SEA intercepted. Welker is one tough cookie, but he may be selling used cars sooner than he thought.
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#2011739 - 10/15/12 02:05 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
vintagetoppsguy
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 Originally Posted By: bbo
Yes, but Rodgers just beat the everloving stuffing out of your 5-0 Texans, tossing six TD passes. So is Rodgers still over rated?


Mike, quit watching Sports Center highlights for your info

GB didn't beat anybody last night. Sure, they earned a W, but the Texans beat themselves. Did you see that game? There were 3 penalties on the Texans that extended GB drives - 2 for touchdowns. Two I believe were bad calls. There were other bad calls as well. I thought the officiating was horrible. This whole thread started because of officiating and to me (and I really believe this), the regular refs are worse than the replacement refs.
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#2011740 - 10/15/12 02:23 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
vintagetoppsguy
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One other thing, I belive that Brady and Rodgers are good quarterbacks. I just think the two are overrated. And yes, I love the Texans, but if I were the coach the first thing I would do would be to cut Schaub. I don't like him and never have.

And not taking anything away from GB last night, they played well. However, there were calls (whether the refs got them right or not), that extednded 2 GB drives for TDs. Take away those penalties and GB ends up punting the ball. So instead of 6 TDs, Rodgers only throws for 4 - could have been a whole different ball game. And I'm not going to argue whether the calls were bad or not. If you believe they were, then it only futhers my point. If you believe they weren't, then the Texans shot themselves in the foot and simply beat themselves.
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#2011741 - 10/15/12 02:49 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
bbo
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Delusion is a powerful drug.

Toughest opponent Texans had faced to date. GB prepared well to stop the run. GB took a FG off the board with that first penalty. Without the penalty and assuming your other facts played out no differently, it still would have been 31-24.

Bad calls or not (I believe they were actually correct calls, so I'd be interested in which one(s) you take issue with), GB wins that game 10 times out of 10. GB exploited the Texans' weaknesses, mainly in the secondary. Rodgers is skilled and smart and had an excellent game plan. Yes, he's better than Schaub, but what available QB could do better than Schaub??

The real reason GB won is one I can trace back to my gambling on football days while in college. GB needed the win more than the Texans. GB was a mortal lock with cosmic certitude to win that game.

Texans next game is must win to (a) regain some swagger, and (b) take the early lead over BALT in the home field advantage for playoffs from the team they lost to in 2011 (on the road). We will see what they are made of next Sunday. Cushing is sorely missed.

Before the season, I predicted the Texans would go 10-6 again, just like last year. I'll stick by that. Meaning they go 5-5 the rest of the way. They may turn it around and go 6-4 (11-5), but I'd be SHOCKED, SHOCKED if they won more than 11 or won more than one playoff game. Theirs is a good regular season team, but not built for the playoffs. Too easy to solve for a good DC.

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#2011742 - 10/15/12 04:10 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
vintagetoppsguy
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I think the Texans will do better than 10-6. The AFC is so weak this year. If San Diego loses tonight (which I think they will), Baltimore and Houston will be the only two teams in the AFC to have a winning record so far this season. That's absolutely amazing if you think about it (6 games into the season). Baltimore will definitely be tough next week but I'm prediciting a 27-24 victory for the Texans.
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#2011743 - 10/15/12 04:55 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
bbo
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Ten games remaining. Still got @CHI, @DET, @NE, all potential losses. Also BALT, BUFF and MINN at Reliant. Tough to win all 3 of those. Probably will beat JAX, @TN & INDY, but could easily lose finale @INDY unless it's a must win game.

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#2011744 - 10/15/12 06:07 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
vintagetoppsguy
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If I were John Elway, I would go down to the sidelines right now and fire John Fox on national TV. Send his pathetic arse to the locker room. There is absolutely no excuse for back to back fumbled punt and kickoff.
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#2011745 - 10/15/12 06:41 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
vintagetoppsguy
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Unnecessary roughness call on Adams and then spiking the ball after the interception. Fox has lost control of his players. Fire his arse!

I hate John Fox!
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#2011746 - 10/15/12 09:23 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
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1.) Manning must have said something to his teammates at half time. John Fox sure doesn't have the stones to do it.

2.) Brady could have never done what Manning did in the second half. Never.

3.) If Fox doesn't do something about Denver's fumbles, they have no chance of making it into the post-season.
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#2011747 - 10/15/12 10:37 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
bbo
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I love it when Manning sucks (1st half).

However, Manning is second behind Aaron Rodgers with a 105.0 passer rating (Rodgers is at 105.4). This year, neither one is over rated, so that talk can stop for awhile.

Fox is a bad coach, though I don't know why he's blamed for fumbles. Any player that has handled the ball since Pee Wee Leagues, through HS, College and now pros, but still can't hold on to the pig, why is that player even on the roster? Should never have been drafted. There's a reason Trindon Holliday didn't make an NFL roster last year and a reason he was cut by the Texans this year. He's too small, he's from LSU and he can't play! (Oops, that's three reasons.)

Norv Turner is apparently worse than Fox. What's he ever done? Ever?
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#2011748 - 10/15/12 10:52 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
bbo
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 Originally Posted By: vintagetoppsguy
2.) Brady could have never done what Manning did in the second half. Never.


He came close (down 21 on the road vs. down 24):

Tom Brady has led the New England Patriots on many fourth-quarter comeback wins, but how often does a team come back from 21 points down to defeat the Chicago Bears?

The date was November 10, 2002, and the Bears were beating the Patriots 27-6 in the third quarter. Brady led the Patriots on three different scoring drives, throwing two touchdown passes to Kevin Faulk and one to David Patten.

Brady led the Patriots to outscore the Bears 27-3 in the second half to come away with a 33-30 victory at Chicago.
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#2011749 - 10/16/12 04:34 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
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Love how quaterbacks end up getting credit for wins 99 percent of the time. That win goes to the Giants defense not Manning. Did Rivers even sustain one drive in the second half? Pretty sure he didnt.
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#2011750 - 10/16/12 04:53 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
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 Originally Posted By: bbo
Over-rated means not living up to expectations.


o·ver·rate (vr-rt)
tr.v. o·ver·rat·ed, o·ver·rat·ing, o·ver·rates
To overestimate the merits of; rate too highly

Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers and Payton Manning are not overrated.

Right now, IMO, Aaron Rodgers is the best QB in the game today. I think because you guys don't like someone, you get a little blinded by your dislike.

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#2011751 - 10/16/12 09:38 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: gaugman]
bbo
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I'm the one DEFENDING Rodgers and Brady. VTG says they are the two most over rated. You are right about one thing: I dislike Manning. Way underperformed expectations coming out of HS and then college. Sure, he puts up numbers, but where are the championships? Montana, Bradshaw, Aikman, Staubach and Brady all had better leadership qualities and the hardware to prove it. I'd even put Favre, Elway and Eli ahead of Peyton Manning if I had a vote.

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#2011752 - 10/16/12 12:01 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
vintagetoppsguy
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 Originally Posted By: bbo
Sure, he puts up numbers, but where are the championships?


You're equating championships with greatness. It doesn't work that way. IMO, Barry Sanders and Tim Brown are the two greatest ever at their position. Sanders retired and cut his career short, otherwise he would be the all-time rushing leader. Brown is second in all-time receiving yards behind Jerry Rice. Then again Brown didn't have two HOF QBs throwing to him either like Rice did (Montana and Young). How many championships did the two of them win (in their professional career)?

Switching sports, if championships equals greatness, then Robert Horry has to be one of the best forwards to ever paly the game, right? After all, he does have 7 championships.


Edited by vintagetoppsguy (10/16/12 12:07 PM)
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#2011753 - 10/16/12 12:29 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
bbo
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QB's are measured by championships more than any other position and any other sport. QB's have so much control of and exert leadership in the game, more than a point guard in basketball and more than a pitcher in baseball (who only pitches every 5th day). Football is unique among the major team sports in that regard. The greatest QB's win multiple championships. That's just the way it is. So let's keep it to football and not go down a rabbit trail. (Nice try at diverting, though.)

I left out Bart Starr and Johnny Unitas. Name the third best, or 5th best, or 10th best QB in the 60's and 50's.

I'll wait.
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#2011764 - 10/17/12 09:34 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
bbo
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Still waiting.

You're probably having trouble coming up with even the stat-sheet stuffers from those decades.

I'm sure you're tempted to recall "great" QB's such as Tarkenton, Griese, Staubach & Stabler (70's), and Fouts (80's). But as the years go by the memory fades. In the end, it's championships that stand out.
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#2011765 - 10/17/12 10:35 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
cammb
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MVP award is a performance driven award. The writers who vote get to see these players more than we do so I dont see the overrated aspect. So by your standards, Trent Dilfer is as good as Peyton Manning.
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#2011766 - 10/17/12 10:37 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
cammb
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If Brady and Rodgers are overrated, what quarter back , in your opinion, isn't.
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#2011767 - 10/17/12 11:12 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: cammb]
33rdStreet
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Only way to judge NFL quaterbacks is by era and I think its safe to say that Brady and Manning are interchanable at 1-2 of there era. There era being the era of over inflated offensive stats. Think bbo has a point that championships are whats remembered by the casual fan but there have been plenty of "game managers' that have super bowl rings. The fact is that year in and year out Brady and Manning give there teams the best chance to get there. Think you have to give Rogers more time to put him in there class. IMHO
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#2011768 - 10/17/12 11:32 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: cammb]
bbo
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 Originally Posted By: cammb
Trent Dilfer is as good as Peyton Manning.


Who is Trent Dilfer?
Who is Peyton Manning?

Greatness begins with championships won. Not statistics, not media or MVP voting, not even Pro Bowls (which we all know is a joke). Multiple rings (2 or more) is what I've said previously in this thread. So I'll stick with that.

Now which of those two guys have won more than one Championship? Everybody knows that the Baltimore Defense won that SB. Ray Lewis was the SB MVP. Same with the '85 Bears and Dent getting the SB MVP over Jim McMahon.

Who was that Redskins QB from Grambling that was QB when Washington won in the early 80's, Doug Williams? Didn't Theismann win one SB? One-time SB-winning QB's that aren't even in the conversation when it comes to greatness include Namath in addition to Williams and Theismann.
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#2011769 - 10/17/12 11:41 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
cammb
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Mike, you have to be the only one in this country to say that Peyton Manning isn't great. Come on now, if he weren't great why would all those teams go after him, even at his age, and offer him all that money? Did they think he was overrated? I think they would know better than us, the fans.
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#2011770 - 10/17/12 11:54 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: cammb]
bbo
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I didn't say he wasn't "great." He has great numbers, is smart, reads defenses well and engineers comebacks (though he is not the best at that). What he doesn't do is win multiple Super Bowls that would put him in the class of the greatest.

The discussion is about over rated QB's. VTG said Brady and Rodgers were over rated. How can Brady be over rated when he was drafted in the 6th round and has won 3 Super Bowls and went 18-1 to lose in the 4th SB? By definition he was UNDER-rated and outperformed expectations.

How can Rodgers be over rated when he was relegated to holding the clipboard for a QB who wouldn't quit and Rodgers leads the league this year in QB rating, won a SB and went 15-1 last year, defending GB's championship before getting bounced in the playoffs by the eventual winner?

Manning couldn't win the SEC title in college and has won just a single SB in the pros, with teams LOADED with receivers and running backs. Little brother Eli has passed him up already. Peyton Manning is more over rated than Brady or Rodgers. Manning hasn't lived up to his hype. Sure Manning has numbers/stats, but he's not even the best in his generation at winning championships. Brady, Big Ben and Eli have exceeded him and Rodgers and Brees have equaled him. Now, who is more likely to win another SB, Peyton Manning or Tom Brady or Drew Brees or Big Ben?
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#2011771 - 10/17/12 12:23 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
cammb
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I defer to the peo[ple that know more than we do, like the players , coaches and owners and Sports Illustrated who declared Manning the NFL Player of the Decade of the 2000s.
As far as Eli goes, if it wasn't for a miracle catch by Tyree on his helmet that game would be over and the Giants. By the way, the Giants D won that game. And if Welker cathes a ball that ordinaily he catches that game would have been over and little brother Eli would be o for 2. Again, If the colts dont sit on the ball before the first half ends and play their game, maybe that would have beeen a win for them.. There are a lot of what ifs and maybes in all these games. You judge greatness on super bowl wins, i judge on the body of work. I sgree that Brady is far from overrated, to me he is number 1, and I'm a Manning fan.

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#2011772 - 10/17/12 01:52 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: cammb]
bbo
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Then we agree. To me, Brady is in the top 5 in my lifetime, Manning is not. For the record, in no particular order, I have Brady, Johnny Unitas, Joe Montana, Bart Starr and Roger Staubach. Otto Graham may be the all-time best, but I never saw him play.

My second five has to include (based upon sheer tenacity, big-time record and will to win), Elway, Griese, Stabler, Favre and maybe Len Dawson. I loved watching Stabler play, greatest southpaw ever. He had more Houdini in him than Fran Tarkenton and Steve Young combined.

Both Mannings are in the second ten somewhere along with Simms, Steve Young, Kurt Warner, Aikman and Marino. In fact, Manning, Warner and Marino are all about the same to me. Big, strong, great technique, lots of yards, limited mobility, but just one or two SB trips.

Players such as Tarkenton, Jim Kelly and Warren Moon could certainly sling it and deserve mention, but not in the top echelon. Bradshaw is an anomaly. Not really a good QB by any standard measure, but clearly a leader and winner. Greatly benefitted from a coach who let him play and players surrounding him who made him better, rather than the other way around.

It's one thing to have a single, championship season such as what Namath, Brees and (almost) Marino, but it's tough to come back and do it multiple times, especially with different teams. If Manning can somehow win a title with Denver, I may move him into the top 10, ahead of Dawson, Stabler and maybe Favre.
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#2011775 - 10/17/12 02:18 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
33rdStreet
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So what if manning wins another super bowl but has an absolutely horrible game? Elway had three very bad super bowls along comes an elite running back something he didn't have before and all the sudden he wins the big game twice? To say winning super bowls is a result of the QB alone is kinda crazy.
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#2011776 - 10/17/12 02:22 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
cammb
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My top 5 is: Unitas, Montana, Starr, P. Manning and Stabler.
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#2011777 - 10/17/12 02:23 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: 33rdStreet]
cammb
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Totally agree.
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#2011778 - 10/17/12 02:24 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: cammb]
33rdStreet
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Hit the nail on the head with number 1 Johnny U!
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#2011779 - 10/17/12 03:48 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: 33rdStreet]
bbo
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 Originally Posted By: 33rdStreet
So what if manning wins another super bowl but has an absolutely horrible game?

That's a lot of hypotheticals, but I'd much rather see him have a horrible game and lose if he ever found his way back there. My guess is he won't and the clock is ticking, especially with his crooked neck.

And I never said anything about a QB winning it alone. Those are your words, not mine.
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#2011780 - 10/17/12 03:52 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: cammb]
bbo
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 Originally Posted By: cammb
My top 5 is: Unitas, Montana, Starr, P. Manning and Stabler.


What?? Earlier you posted the Brady is #1 and you're a Manning fan. cammb, have you been drinking this afternoon while posting?
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#2011781 - 10/17/12 04:08 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
33rdStreet
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Your right you never said they win it alone but judging them on super bowl wins more than anything else leaves out there offensive line ( huge for a QB ) the quality of the backs to open up the passing game etc etc some really good qb's can be on horrible teams. Even the best qb's can look bad when hurried. Manning is an elite QB.
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#2011783 - 10/17/12 05:01 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: 33rdStreet]
bbo
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The truly elite QB's win multiple championships and Brady and Rodgers are not over rated. That's all I've said. You've had your say, I've had mine. If you choose to continue to restate or reinterpret my postings, it only makes you look foolish, not me.
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#2011784 - 10/17/12 05:38 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
33rdStreet
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No need to get worked up! Just offering up a differnt opinion for discussion purposes. Judging from your posts it's easy to see your a knowledgeable sports fan and your comments regarding your sets and cards are almost always dead on. I come here to talk sports and cards and get opinions that's all.
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#2011785 - 10/17/12 05:40 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: 33rdStreet]
33rdStreet
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Come on bbo let's talk 59 topps I know we both agree that sets one of the best!
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#2011786 - 10/17/12 05:55 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
cammb
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I meant Brady is #1 the last couple of years. Alltime is definitely Unitas, absolutely the best and the toughest!
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#2011787 - 10/17/12 05:57 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: 33rdStreet]
cammb
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Come on 33rd street, you sound like Rodney King.
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#2011788 - 10/17/12 06:01 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: cammb]
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Lol yeah I do, Marines never retreat!!!!! What was I thinking?!?
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#2011789 - 10/17/12 06:10 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: 33rdStreet]
bbo
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Not worked up, just worked over.

Changing subjects, there's a 1952 Mantle SGC 60 on eBay right now. Bid on it for me and give it to me for Christmas. There's still time.
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#2011790 - 10/17/12 06:12 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: 33rdStreet]
Blackie
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 Originally Posted By: 33rdStreet
Lol yeah I do, Marines never retreat!!!!! What was I thinking?!?



Hell yeah Devil Dog!! Never give up
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#2011792 - 10/17/12 06:14 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: 33rdStreet]
Blackie
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Gotta agree with John Unitas as top of the Field Generals but Montana is my all Time favorite....
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#2011794 - 10/17/12 06:23 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: Blackie]
33rdStreet
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That's a card I'll never own! I actually prefer the 52 bowman always have for some reason. Maybe because I can afford it and have one. Not saying I'd pass a 52 by or anythIng!
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#2011795 - 10/17/12 06:26 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: 33rdStreet]
33rdStreet
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Montana was one hell of a QB! Johnny U is a hometown boy so I'm biased.
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#2011796 - 10/17/12 06:31 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
vintagetoppsguy
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 Originally Posted By: bbo
Greatness begins with championships won.


Mike,

Come on, you really don't believe that, do you?

Sammy Baugh, Dan Marino, Warren Moon, Jim Kelley, Sid Luckman, Y.A. Tittle, Dan Fouts, Fran Tarkenton, Sonny Jurgensen, Bobby Layne, Archie Manning. All great quarterbacks, no Super Bowl. I just shot holes in your theory. Thanks for playing. Come back again.
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#2011797 - 10/17/12 06:31 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: 33rdStreet]
Blackie
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Can't blame ya at all Daryl, if Johnny U was from my town i would be biased too. Love watching old NFL classic film of him.
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#2011801 - 10/17/12 06:45 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: Blackie]
33rdStreet
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Rob,

What I love about old NFL films is the games always seem to be in the extreme cold! You can see there breath and the ground is beat to hell it actually looks like 300 pound men are beating the hell out of each other on the field. In those old films you can see lineman with casts on!!!! No chance you see anything like that today. Football of today keeps my interest and keeps me glued to the tv on Sunday, the athletes are great just doesn't look like old football to me at all.

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#2011802 - 10/17/12 06:48 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: 33rdStreet]
Blackie
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Couldnt agree more brother. I watch more College football than NFL anymore.
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#2011812 - 10/18/12 04:09 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
bbo
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 Originally Posted By: vintagetoppsguy
 Originally Posted By: bbo
Greatness begins with championships won.


Come on, you really don't believe that, do you?


Absolutely, otherwise, why keep score? Why hand out trophies and titles? And here I thought you were a competitive guy?

Why do you think people covet cards and memorabilia of Montana, Staubach and Unitas over Fouts, Tarkenton and Tittle?

Archie Manning?? You can't be serious! ARCHIE Manning?? \:o
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#2011813 - 10/18/12 01:41 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
bbo
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 Originally Posted By: vintagetoppsguy
Sammy Baugh, Dan Marino, Warren Moon, Jim Kelley, Sid Luckman, Y.A. Tittle, Dan Fouts, Fran Tarkenton, Sonny Jurgensen, Bobby Layne, Archie Manning. All great quarterbacks, no Super Bowl. I just shot holes in your theory.


I didn't limit greatness to Super Bowl wins. I said championships. Prior to the Super Bowl, the NFL Championship was accepted as the world title in pro football.

Sammy Baugh won two NFL Championships ('37 & '42) prior to there ever being a Super Bowl.

Sid Luckman led the Bears to four NFL Championships in the seven years from 1940-1946.

Bobby Layne won back-to-back NFL championships for the Detroit Lions in 1952-53, missing the hat trick by losing to the Browns in '54.

Y.A. Tittle was the Jim Kelly of his era, making it to, but losing multiple title games in 1961, 1962 and 1963. Tittle and Kelly having made it to multiple title games (Kelly, along with Moon winning 2nd-tier league titles), all deserve recognition. But the histories of such men always include the phrase, "The only thing missing from xxxxxx's impressive résumé was a championship."

So you are actually helping make my point. Thank you for playing.

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#2011814 - 10/18/12 05:40 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
vintagetoppsguy
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 Originally Posted By: bbo
I didn't limit greatness to Super Bowl wins. I said championships.


Oh, then that changes things. Peyton Manning has won 2 AFC championships, 1 super bowl championship and 1 SEC championship. Thanks for clarifying that and helping make my point. Thank you for playing.
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#2011817 - 10/18/12 07:44 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
bbo
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I didn't know anyone could be this stupid. Allow me to school you, son. It's a championship when there are no more games played for that season. I.e., last game played in a season, the winner of said last game is the champion. Everyone else is a runner-up/loser/see-ya-next-year wannabe.

But if you're used to finishing second and calling it a win, you must be an Obama fan in 2012.

Oh, and by the way, I'm laying the points and taking WVU against your girlie men from K-State on Saturday.

And another thing: any time you want to trade me your Montana, Staubach and Unitas rookies straight up for Fouts, Tarkenton and Tittle, you know where to find me.

One more: your mother wears combat boots.
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#2011818 - 10/18/12 08:27 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
vintagetoppsguy
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 Originally Posted By: bbo
Allow me to school you, son. It's a championship when there are no more games played for that season.


You're defining the rules, I am just playing by them. Quit changing the rules every time I bust your balls. Ok, so if the last game to be played in a season is the championship game, that must be the Pro Bowl for the NFL. Manning has played in 7 Pro Bowls, the AFC has won 4 of those. That makes Manning a 4 time champion. Thanks for playing, come again.

 Originally Posted By: bbo
Oh, and by the way, I'm laying the points and taking WVU against your girlie men from K-State on Saturday.


Tell you what. WV are 3 point favorites. I'll give you 3 points, to make it a 6 point swing. If K-State wins, you admit Manning is the best quarterback ever. WVU wins, I'll admit that he is the most over rated quarterback ever. Bet?
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#2011819 - 10/18/12 08:35 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
bbo
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Delusion is a powerful drug.

Sure, the Pro Bowl is the standard, that's why the league is considering ending it. It's such a charade.

When you are outclassed, you sound (type) like a democrat. Twist and restate and divert and deceive until you find a loophole in your opponent. Problem is, I'm too smart and too logical for you. I'm well trained to focus on the issue at hand: over rated vs. under rated, specifically Brady and Rodgers. You lost, I won. You search randomly for an illusive advantage and keep coming up empty.

If K-State wins, I'll admit K-State is better than WVU. If WVU wins, you admit WVU is better than K-State. Or is that too logical for your pea-brained, K-State educated skull?
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#2011820 - 10/18/12 09:14 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
vintagetoppsguy
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 Originally Posted By: bbo
If K-State wins, I'll admit K-State is better than WVU. If WVU wins, you admit WVU is better than K-State. Or is that too logical for your pea-brained, K-State educated skull?


If K-State wins, you won't have to admit they're better than WVU, the "W" will prove it. Come on, I'm giving you 3 points. That's a 6 point swing in your favor. If K-State wins, just admit that you know as much about football as Obama knows about running the country and that Manning is the best quarteback ever. Bet?


Edited by vintagetoppsguy (10/18/12 09:16 PM)
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#2011821 - 10/19/12 02:45 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
BigRedOne
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VTG

What planet are you living on?

BBO is 100% correct. and easily wins this debate.

Payton Manning is one of the most overrated QB's in history. TV endorsments and media hype don't make a QB great. Eli is the best of the brothers.

I remember the cosmedic SB MVP award they gave Manning in that game against the Bears. They grilled Rex Grossman for his play and yet Mannings stats weren't much better.

Peyton Manning surely isn't in the same league as Tom Brady. Don't let the TV commercials and media propoganda think for you.

Manning don't even make my top 15 All-Time QB list.

The Greatest I ever saw was Roger Staubach.

Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr, Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham, Roger Staubach, Joe Montana, Len Dawson, Ken Stabler, Tom Brady, Sid Luckman, Bobby Lane,
Daryl Lamonica, George Blanda, Joe Namath, Troy Aikman, Eli Manning, Steve Young

Other Great QB's I would surely take for my team before Peyton Manning.

Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Don Merideth, Bert Jones,
Phil Simms.

One List Peyton does make is my All-Time Overrated list.

Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Fran Tarkenton, John Elway,

I suggest quit drinking the media Kool-Aid.




Edited by BigRedOne (10/19/12 02:47 AM)
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#2011822 - 10/19/12 05:00 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: BigRedOne]
cammb
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Everybody has their opinion. But again people in the sport and that includes players, coaches , owners and journalists all seem to disagree with you and bbo. What flavor kool aid are they drinking? I will side these people. Nobody wins this debate because it is fueled by opinion. It just doesn't make sense for you and bbo to discount stats.
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#2011823 - 10/19/12 06:24 AM Things you're ignoring...like stats [Re: BigRedOne]
vintagetoppsguy
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 Originally Posted By: BigRedOne
VTG

What planet are you living on?

BBO is 100% correct. and easily wins this debate.

Payton Manning is one of the most overrated QB's in history. TV endorsments and media hype don't make a QB great. Eli is the best of the brothers.

I remember the cosmedic SB MVP award they gave Manning in that game against the Bears. They grilled Rex Grossman for his play and yet Mannings stats weren't much better.

Peyton Manning surely isn't in the same league as Tom Brady. Don't let the TV commercials and media propoganda think for you.

Manning don't even make my top 15 All-Time QB list.

The Greatest I ever saw was Roger Staubach.

Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr, Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham, Roger Staubach, Joe Montana, Len Dawson, Ken Stabler, Tom Brady, Sid Luckman, Bobby Lane,
Daryl Lamonica, George Blanda, Joe Namath, Troy Aikman, Eli Manning, Steve Young

Other Great QB's I would surely take for my team before Peyton Manning.

Jim Kelly, Warren Moon, Don Merideth, Bert Jones,
Phil Simms.

One List Peyton does make is my All-Time Overrated list.

Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Fran Tarkenton, John Elway,

I suggest quit drinking the media Kool-Aid.



\
John,

Some day when you have some free time on your hands, turn one of your football cards over and look at the back. It contains these things called stats. Stats are short for "statistics" and are used to measure a player's results.

Comparing Manning's and Brady's stats, Manning beats him in all the major categories - games won as a starting QB, TDs, pasings yards, etc. How can you possibly say Brady is better when the stats prove otherwise?

In school we are measured by stats - GPA. Your QB argument is the equivilent of your kid graduting with a 4.0 GPA and my kid graduating with a 3.2 GPA and me saying that my kid is smarter than yours. Ummmm, wouldn't the stats (GPA) prove otherwise?
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#2011824 - 10/19/12 06:32 AM Re: Things you're ignoring...like stats [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
vintagetoppsguy
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All time pass completions:
Manning #3, Brady not even in top 5

All time pass yards:
Manning #3, Brady not even in top 5

All time passing TDs:
Manning #3, Brady not even in top 5
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#2011825 - 10/19/12 08:03 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: BigRedOne]
bbo
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 Originally Posted By: BigRedOne
VTG

What planet are you living on?

BBO is 100% correct. and easily wins this debate.

Payton Manning is one of the most overrated QB's in history. TV endorsments and media hype don't make a QB great. Eli is the best of the brothers.


Thank you, thank you, thank you. Finally a voice of reason. And I might add, from the board's resident expert on football. Geesh! I was beginning to think VTG was pulling my leg all this time. I guess it is the kool-aid from watching too much TV in VTG's generation.
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#2011826 - 10/19/12 08:27 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
vintagetoppsguy
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Manning is a better QB than Brady. Period. My opinion is based on facts (stats). Your opinion is based on...well, nothing.

When Brady's stats are equal to or better than Manning's stats, we can have a serious conversation. Until then, you have no credibility - nothing to base your opinion on other than you say so.
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#2011827 - 10/19/12 08:38 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
cammb
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Excuse me, bbo, but John is the boards expert on football CARDS. We, the fans, are all experts on footbal. Vintage spells it out beautifully, the backs of our beloved cards show the STATS and the stats determine whether an athlete is considered great.
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#2011828 - 10/19/12 08:47 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: cammb]
trex
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I’ve got an idea that should solve the issue once and for all. It will take a little research, but hey, what’s a little time. Why don’t you devise a point system and weight it. Here’s an idea to get you started.

Super Bowl wins = 5 points
Super Bowl losses = -2 points
Here’s one you may or may not want to use:
League MVP awards and/or Super Bowl MVP awards.
If you use it assign points to it as you see fit, or toss it all together.
For pre-Super Bowl years substitute NFL & AFL Championship for Super Bowl with the same points as the Super Bowl.
Total Career Yards = 1 point for every 1000 yards rounded to the closest whole number
Career Yards per Attempt = 1 point per yard rounded to the closest whole number
Career Touchdowns = 1 point for every touchdown
Career Interceptions = -1 point for every interception
Total Career Wins = 1 point for every 10 wins rounded
Total Career Losses = -1 point for every 10 losses rounded
Winning Seasons = 2 points for every winning season
Losing Seasons = -1 for every losing season

If it were me I would add a “wuzzy” factor. Whatever year it was when all the flag football rules started for quarterbacks. Lets for simplicity sake say 2000.

If all or the majority of years played were prior to the year 2000 = 10 points
If all or the majority of years played were after the year 2000 = -10 points

This would take all the personal prejudice out, weighs heavily for championships and winning seasons, yet still enters in personal stats. You can have top 5,10,15,20, 25 however far out you want to run it.

Have fun!

I think everyone will be surprised at the results.
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#2011830 - 10/19/12 11:40 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: cammb]
bbo
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My opinion is based on...championships won.

When Manning has multiple rings, we will let you enter the conversation. Until then, your cred is lacking.

Stats are NOT the measure of greatness. If it were, the changes in the game over the years (rules, number of games played, run vs. pass offenses, etc.) would eliminate ALL of the old-timers. Example: which is more valuable, a 1000-yard rusher in a 12-game season or a 16-game season?

The purpose of competitive, professional sports is to win championships. PERIOD. Until a QB (clearly the team leader) engineers multiple wins at the National or World championship level, his ultimate "greatness" falls into question.

Again, tell me why Montana rookies are more valuable than Dan Fouts, why Roger Staubach more than Fran Tarkenton and why Johnny Unitas more than Y.A. Tittle? It's because the greatest of the "great" win championships. (Plural)

Sorry that you stat geeks get all creamy about the back of the cards. I don't.
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#2011831 - 10/19/12 12:05 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
vintagetoppsguy
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OK, I thought you were serious at first, but now I know you're just pulling my leg. No one can really be that disillusional. If the quarterback is the most important role on the team, why not just play the game with 2 players - a quarterback and a receiver? I guess the other 9 guys do nothing. If that's the case, then Peyton Mannning must be some kind of god by not allowing the Chargers to score any points in the second half of the game Monday night. The defense didn't have anything to do with that win, right?

Come on, Mike. There's so much a QB has no control of - receivers dropping passes, kickers missing FGs, fumbles (not by QB), muffed punt/kick offs, etc. The QB can only control a small aspect of the game.

Do you really think Aikman would have won those super bowls without Irvin and Smith? If you're answer is yes, then you clearly prove your point. If your answer is no, then you lose...again.

Edited to add: If stats mean nothing, why bother to keep them? Stats were kept long before championships were played.





Edited by vintagetoppsguy (10/19/12 12:13 PM)
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#2011832 - 10/19/12 01:21 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
vintagetoppsguy
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Mike says Championships = Greatness. Ok, so then Bradshaw is the greatest quarterback ever, right? He does have 4 superbowl wins. If that is the case, then Roger Staubach is on the same level of greatness as Jim Plunkett and Bob Griese, all 3 of which each have 2 SB wins. Wow, I learn something new everyday.

Edited by vintagetoppsguy (10/19/12 01:25 PM)
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#2011833 - 10/19/12 01:41 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
bbo
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Don't be a f****ing idiot. I've already schooled you. But I don't mind rubbing your nose in it again. If stats were the end all/be all, they'd quit playing after the regular season and just give out trophies based on yards and TD's and such. No playoffs, no championship games.

I have a lot of trouble conversing with a moron, so I'll let all my previous posts do the talking. Bottom line: Tom Brady is not over rated, nor is Aaron Rodgers at this point in his career (although he has more to prove IMO before the verdict is in). Peyton Manning IS over rated and has not lived up to all the media hype. There are many reasons, including the fact that he hasn't won multiple World Championships. There is still time for Peyton, though. Let's see if he can take Denver farther than Tim Tebow did last year. If he doesn't take the Broncos farther than Tebow did, I will start a new thread to verbally castrate you (again).

Thanks for making me look good.
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#2011834 - 10/19/12 02:05 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
vintagetoppsguy
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 Originally Posted By: bbo
Greatness begins with championships won.


If greatness begins with championships won, then Terry Bradshaw is the greatest quarterback ever having won 4 SBs. Those are your words quoted above, not mine. Words have meaning, Mike. Just because you spout stupid crap doesn't make it so. Have some balls and stick to your words.

Just because you keep saying the same nonsense over and over doesn't make it true. Let's put an end to this. Have some balls, stick to your words and admit BY YOUR OWN STANDARDS quoted above that Bradshaw is the greatest ever. Deal?
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#2011835 - 10/19/12 02:47 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
vintagetoppsguy
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Come on, Mike. Why so quiet?

You said, "Greatness begins with championships won." Well, which other NFL QB has won more championships than Terry Bradshaw? That has to make him the greatest, right?

So now you have a choice to make at this point. You either admit (by your own standards) that Bradshaw is the greatest ever, or admit that you were full of crap from the beginning. It's one or the other. There is no third choice. You can't have it both ways.

What's your choice?


Edited by vintagetoppsguy (10/19/12 02:51 PM)
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#2011836 - 10/19/12 03:37 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
trex
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 Originally Posted By: vintagetoppsguy


You said, "Greatness begins with championships won." Well, which other NFL QB has won more championships than Terry Bradshaw? That has to make him the greatest, right?


Bart Starr won 5 NFL Championships prior to the Super Bowl in addition to two Super Bowls. I believe that tops Bradshaw.


Edited by trex (10/19/12 03:38 PM)
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#2011837 - 10/19/12 04:33 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
BigRedOne
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Im sorry Mike, but these Stat guys just don't get it. The intangables the great QB's bring to the game come playoff time are NOT measure by numbers or stats. It's their on field present and leadership abilities that set them apart from the pure stat guys. They have that special field general ability that instills a winning confidence in every other player around them.

These are things that can not be measured by stats, and are a common denominator of all the greatest QB's.

I don't care if you threw more TD's than anyone else, or had more completions than anyone else.

Did you pocess the intangibles that carried your team to the ultimate goal?

Stat guys never seem to understand the dynamics of the game and how every QB has to fit into that team dynamic. In the case of Terry Bradshaw his Team Dynamics required him to just not lose the game, and he did that very well. He had one hell of an arm! Just wasn't always that accurate.

Its common sense that it is a "team" game, so please don't make the childish comments about just putting two players on the field. Thats just a dumb argument to even mention.

But it IS the QB and his intangibles that more times than not, will determine the games outcome.

Are there special expectpections to this? Absoultely! And it is usually a Great Defense such as the 70's Steelers, 85 Bears, Dilfer's Ravens. These are instantances where the QB's are really only required to NOT lose the game. Even in these special instances, The QB is still the one Individual require to make this happen.

Can you see Johnny Unitas' on field swagger on the stat sheet?

Can you see Roger Staubach's sheer determination to win on the back of his cards?

Does Joe Montana's calm cool demeanor show up on the back of any of his cards?

Take the time to look up from your numbers columns and you just might see the Field demeanor of the great QB's and how it affects the Team Dynamics which ultimately leads their teams to sucess.

I would also like to comment on the absolute Luxury that these modern day cream puff QB's enjoy in order to obtain these ridiculous stats.
These QB debates are really Apples and Oranges.

You give Johnny Unitas these "no touching QB" and letting the recievers run unchallenge modern rules, he may never have lost a game. He would absolutely destroy the modern NFL. Same with Roger Staubach. which makes their careers that more impressive considering the beating they had to take. These cream puff QB's today just basically have to throw the ball up knowing the Defenders have been rendered almost usless by the rules to promote more scoring in the NFL.

Hell you got every Tom, Dick and Harry in the league throwing for 300 yards a game and multiple TD's. Staubach was right, It has became kind of a wussy game now.

One other point.

Do you think Peyton Manning would trade his nice stats for Tom Brady's Super Bowl Rings?

I think we all know Peyton would not hestitate to make that trade.
Which brings us back to Chamionships. And if it helps you stat guys keep your numbers in order, because everything is black and white to you, Well
then Yes...... Terry Bradshaw could be the Greatest. Although I would Place both joe Montana and Otto Graham ahead of him, as they both have 4 chamionships as well. TEX is absoultely right... Bart Starr is the Greatest.


Beings your blind to the intangibles of the game, Im sure you will work out a numbers equation with your calculators to find the right answers.

Aren't these debates FUN!


John







Edited by BigRedOne (10/19/12 06:57 PM)
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#2011841 - 10/19/12 05:56 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: BigRedOne]
cammb
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When a player's peers state that someone is "great" then neither you or I can dispute it. They play the game, whether its diluted or not, and they say that Peyton Manning is GREAT.
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#2011845 - 10/19/12 06:55 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: BigRedOne]
BigRedOne
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here is another example of "stats"

Take Tony Romo.... Is he not among the top statisical leaders every Year? I believe he has moved into some of the top passing catagories in Cowboy History?

So why is it that he doesn't get touted as one of the Greatest? Even in Cowboy History?

The answer is quite simple and I think even you stat guys are smart enough to know the answer.

Say it now...... Common on you guys..... put your calculators away look up from your data sheets and tell me what you see.........

INTANGIBLES

Tony Romo Stat Sheets with lots of Yradage/ TD's etc.. but he lacks the crucial intangibles that all great QB's have.

Team Leadership: He doesn't command or instill the winning confidence in the players around him.

Field General: He lacks the crucial on field decission making process that all "great" QB's insinctively have. clock management and just a landry list of bad decissions made at crucial points in games.

So... Until he can elevate to the next level(Meaning nothing short of a World championship)
He will never be held in a higher status, regardless how many TD's are Yards he throws for.


Now here is the other side of the coin.

Peyton Manning is no doubt one of the best QB's of his time here. But he has always enjoyed a special love affair with the media(kind of like the Bleeding heart Liberals).
TV endorsements and high profile Commercials keep him in Media World Greatness.

While on the Field it is accually his brother Eli that is on the verge of a possible 3rd Super Bowl ring, thus placing him amongst some of the games most succcussful QB' of all time.

Yet the Media and blinded Stat guy bias hype for Peyton continues despite the fact that Eli continues to win Super bowls and outshine him.

This Generations pecking Order?

Tom Brady
Eli Manning
Aaron Rogers,Drew Brees, Peyton Manning
(Looks as though Rogers has the best chance of elevating from the pack. Rogers also has the best chance of taking the TV, Endorsement Media crown away from Peyton.)

The Greatest I ever Saw.....

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#2011846 - 10/19/12 07:04 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: cammb]
BigRedOne
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 Originally Posted By: cammb
When a player's peers state that someone is "great" then neither you or I can dispute it. They play the game, whether its diluted or not, and they say that Peyton Manning is GREAT.


No doubt Peyton is a great QB. Just not as great as the hype and those that bounce him from the playoffs annually.

Billy kilmer was also a GREAT QB. He was one tough SOB and gets high marks from his peers as well. You won't get an arguement from me here.


Edited by BigRedOne (10/19/12 08:21 PM)
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#2011847 - 10/19/12 07:05 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: BigRedOne]
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Love the card with Staubach in his Navy Football Uniform!
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#2011849 - 10/19/12 08:43 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: Blackie]
BigRedOne
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Yea, That is very cool card Rob.

Roger just had that special something that set him apart from all others. His competivness and will to win was unmatched. He had that special on field presense that made those around him play beyond their means. He instilled a winning attitude that transfered to those around him.

He played with unmatched pride and Honor not only on the field, but off it as well. He was a true American hero that became the Iconic symbol of Americas Team.

I remember Charlie Waters on NFL films stating that NEVER did we ever think we were going to lose. No matter what the score was they always belive without doubt that Roger would win the game. They just don't make them like that no more.

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#2011853 - 10/19/12 10:51 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: BigRedOne]
SMtJoy
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I have stayed away from posting in this thread but I do like to read everyone's views.

I just wanted to say I agree on the Tony Romo stuff, he puts up awesome numbers but I sure as hell dont want him my quarterback for a playoff game. I would also take Staubach over him same as im sure everyone else but I would also much rather have Dandy Don or Danny White over him even thou their stats dont even come close.

Ohh and If I had one current choice of a QB for one Super Bowl, I'm taking Tom Brady over Peyton every day.


Edited by SMtJoy (10/19/12 10:53 PM)

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#2011856 - 10/20/12 07:09 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: SMtJoy]
BigRedOne
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 Originally Posted By: SMtJoy
I have stayed away from posting in this thread but I do like to read everyone's views.

I just wanted to say I agree on the Tony Romo stuff, he puts up awesome numbers but I sure as hell dont want him my quarterback for a playoff game. I would also take Staubach over him same as im sure everyone else but I would also much rather have Dandy Don or Danny White over him even thou their stats dont even come close.

Ohh and If I had one current choice of a QB for one Super Bowl, I'm taking Tom Brady over Peyton every day.


I agree. I would also take both Danny White and Don Merideth over Romo. I like my chances better with a sound decission maker on the field as opposed to a "stat maker" who throws for 300 yards and 4 TD's, but loses the game with Bad decissions and clock management late in the game.

John
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#2011857 - 10/20/12 07:12 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: SMtJoy]
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I agree with Vintage. It is a team sport,Eli would not have won any Super Bowls if were not for that Defense. They held the Great Brady under 20 points, thats why they won!!! Trent DILFER Brad Johnson and Doug Williams won Super Bowls would you want to label them as great,NO.I don't personally like John Elway but no way was he over-rated. His team was average got them to 2 Super Bowls practically by himself,even know that got killed in them games, but won 2 after he got a great running game and some wideouts. Eli should not even been in the Super Bowl last year if it wasn't for 2 turnovers in the special teams in the NFC Championship game, you have to be kidding that you or anybody would take Eli over Payton is crazy.
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#2011861 - 10/20/12 08:56 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: hitman]
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JMO. Putting Brady over Manning is like saying McGwire and Sosa were better home run hitters than Hank Aaron. Show me something Brady did AFTER spygate.
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#2011863 - 10/20/12 11:32 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: brick]
33rdStreet
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Without a doubt the most entertaining thread since I first posted on here. I'm sticking to judging QB's by the era they played in. If I'm picking one to win a game it's Brady ( hate to admit it ). He has done it more than anyone this era there is really no arguing that fact. I also feel that Manning is an elite QB's. Saying he isn't just kinda tells me you dislike him for other reasons. Keep the arguments coming!!!
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#2011865 - 10/20/12 01:19 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: 33rdStreet]
cammb
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I think you hit right on the head. Excellent post.
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#2011870 - 10/20/12 07:24 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: cammb]
vintagetoppsguy
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 Originally Posted By: bbo
Oh, and I say Chargers win tonight.

 Originally Posted By: bbo
I'm laying the points and taking WVU against your girlie men from K-State on Saturday.


Mike, your ability to pick football games is equivalent to your quarterback knowledge.

K-State proved why they should be ranked no lower than number two, destroying WVU tonight 55-14.

Girlie men? Really?

None of the teams above K-State have beaten two ranked teams on the road like K-State has. In fact, Bama has only beaten one ranked team and that was at home. And the two ranked teams that Oregon beat were ranked 22 and 23.

IMO, it should be:

1.) Florida
2.) K-State
3.) Alabama
4.) Notre Dame
5.) Oregon

Klein showed why he’s the top Heisman candidate with 7 touchdowns (4 rushing, 3 passing), going 19/21 with 323 passing yards.
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#2011876 - 10/21/12 01:59 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
BigRedOne
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It always amazes me how people will try to discredit the sucess of Eli to continue to prop up his Media hyped Brother Peyton.

"Its a Team Sport" Duhhhh
"its The Defense" Duhhhh2

and when all else fails there's always the old
Trent Dilfer ace in the hole theory.
Its kind of like how the politians try to use the "race card" to discredit each other

9 times out of 10 the best team is going to win

That means the best defense, the best coaches and belive it or not the best QB's

If you think Eli Manning was no more instrumental to the Giants Success than Trent Dilfer, Well your just not a very intelligent Football person.

Theres a reason that Great Ravens defense didn't win or even return to more Championships Like the Giants.

And what would you say that difference is?

That's right, having one of the top premire QB's.

You don't win 2 Super Bowls and Possibly a 3rd, Simply by having a journeyman QB riding the coat tails of the Defense. True it may afford him more opportunities, but it is absolutely sheer, utter ridiculous, to think that Eli Manning was not instrumental to the success the Giants have had.

And Im a Cowboy Fan! But again, to try and marginalize and discredit his success in order to continue to prop up your over hyped media darling Peyton is just plain Football non-sense.

As I recall Peytons Colts had some pretty high powered teams Themselves.

At this point in their careers it looks as though Eli is headed for canton base on winning chamionship while Peyton settles for a few regular season passing records that won't last and the next big fat contract from the next team thats desperate enough to buy into the hype.

Peyton's had a great run, and no doubt a great QB for his time. And Again.... Just not as great as those the bounce him out of the playoffs annually.

Statistical records are made an broken. The real NFL history and heroes are made in the Postseason.

There was a time when QB's weren't panty ass wussies given special rules allowing nobody to touch them so they can throw the ball virtualy uncontested to a reciever thats also allowed to run unconstested. Pretty easy to throw for 300 yds/ 4 TD's a game with rules that prohibit the defense.

I remember the Greatest QB I ever saw having to do it the hard way with Deacon Jones knocking you senseless with a head slap or Butkus trying to rip your head loose. Your greatness was determined by what you did on the field, not in an TV commercial or Shoe Endorsment because you had some over inflated modernday statistical records.






Edited by BigRedOne (10/21/12 02:12 AM)
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#2011877 - 10/21/12 06:08 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: BigRedOne]
gaugman
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Billy Kilmer? Billy Kilmer may have been tough. Yeah, yeah, he used to limp up to the line and not come out of the game but he was not great.

Here are some other quarterbacks you called great. George Blanda? Ken Stabler? Don Merideth? Warren Moon? Bert Jones? Come on! Are you serious?
They’re all very good signal callers but they were not great. You can factor in all the intangibles you’d like.

You would rather have those six QB’s (I could name more) over Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, and John Elway?
Its statements like that that takes away all your credibility.

IMO, I think Brady is a better quarterback than Peyton Manning, but that doesn’t make Peyton over rated or an under achiever or not a great quarterback. It's my opinion.

I agree with bbo when he says QB's have so much control of and exert leadership in the game, but like others on prior posts have said, it takes many other factors that determine the outcome of games, seasons and even sometimes careers.

Trent Dilfer ace in the hole theory? How about if we add, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams, Brad Johnson, Mark Rypien, Jim McMahon, Ken Stabler, Joe Theismann and Jim Plunkett twice. All Superbowl winning quarterbacks. Some won MVP of the game. BTW Stabler was not one of them.

You want OVER RATED? Joe Namath. Now that’s the definition of overrated….and I don’t care what his rookie card goes for

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#2011878 - 10/21/12 06:24 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: BigRedOne]
vintagetoppsguy
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 Originally Posted By: BigRedOne
9 times out of 10 the best team is going to win


Wow! Do you really think the 2007 16-0 Patriots were better than the 10-6 Giants? Tyree's catch won that Super Bowl. You know that!

Do you realy think the 2011 9-7 Giants were the best team last year? Come on!

You may collect football cards, but you know d!ck about the game!

Tell you what, let's have a contest. You and I can pick the winners each week. We can do it anyway you like it - heads up, against the spread, whatever you want - college, pros, heck we can pick high school games if you want.

I'm gong to disprove your knowledge of football on these boards real quick!

Edited to add: We can do it for bragging rights, we can do it for money, we can do it for cards, whatever you want.


Edited by vintagetoppsguy (10/21/12 06:35 AM)
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#2011879 - 10/21/12 06:36 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
gaugman
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I LOVE a challenge. I sure hope he accepts!!
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#2011881 - 10/21/12 06:50 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: gaugman]
vintagetoppsguy
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 Originally Posted By: gaugman
I LOVE a challenge. I sure hope he accepts!!


I hope he has the BALLS to accept and wants to put up some money.

I'm sick of people insulting you just because your opinion differs from theirs.

I said Manning was the better quarterback. BBO said Brady was the better quarterback. Who's right and who's wrong? It doesn't matter, it's all opinion. He wants to prove his opinion by saying chamopinships prove who's the better quarterback. I say career stats prove who's the better quarterback. Again, who's right and who's wrong. It doesn't matter, it's still all just opinion. Then he called me a "f*cking idiot." That's when I won the argument. I didn't win because Manning is the better quarterback. I won because he has to result to insults and name calling to try to prove his point. And he sucks at picking winning football teams too, but that's another story.

And now twice BigRedOne has basically said that if you don't agree with him, you're stupid. It's all just opinion folks. But you know what isn't opinion? Football game winners. So my challenge goes out to him and I promise I will embarrass him on these boards if he chooses to accept my challenge.
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#2011882 - 10/21/12 07:20 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
brick
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I like your spunk.
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#2011889 - 10/21/12 10:17 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
cammb
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I cant believe I am going to say this but, Dave, you are my idol.

Edited by cammb (10/21/12 10:20 AM)

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#2011890 - 10/21/12 10:56 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: cammb]
bbo
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 Originally Posted By: cammb
I cant believe I am going to say this but, Dave, you are my idol.


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An idol is an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed or any person or thing regarded with blind admiration, adoration, or devotion. (emphasis added)

What a bunch of 13-year old adolescent pizz-ants! LMAO. Let me know if those two ever meet after school behind the baseball dugout to settle this once and for all. Still LMAO.
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#2011894 - 10/21/12 02:08 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
BigRedOne
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So picking a few football winners proves your.... Like some kind of Football God?

Like ya said.. Its all just opinion... so why all the hatred?

These debates have been going on as long as football has been played.

The 9-7 Giants were sure the best that day now weren't they. Bet ya didn't pick that one right.

As for the so called challenge? Thats suppose to support your opinion and prove your a football genius? No time for that kind of childish jiberish.

But hey! its been fun debating here with ya!

I'll take the ole Snake any day over any of todays cream Puff QB's


Does anybody have any cards we can talk about?

Ive always like this one of the undisputed All-Time greatest ever Modern day QB.


Of coarse thatsjust my opinion.

Take Care guys it been nice learning so much from you. Thanks!

John
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#2011895 - 10/21/12 03:10 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: BigRedOne]
bbo
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In some strange way, maybe he thinks it proves his manhood. Personally, I've never had a problem in that area to resort to issuing constant challenges to prove to myself I measure up. Then to repeatedly change the words and subjects that someone else types on a keyboard, when the words are on the screen for all to see, well it just seems strange. But again, I've never had a problem in that area. Maybe his doctor should cut back on his testosterone booster shots.

He got twisted up with cammb awhile back and they nearly came to blows, then both apologized and now they're best buds. So, I guess when he gets his meds straightened out we can talk about cards again. (And replacement referees.)
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#2011897 - 10/21/12 04:27 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
vintagetoppsguy
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 Originally Posted By: bbo
What a bunch of 13-year old adolescent pizz-ants!


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Adolescence (from Latin: adolescere meaning "to grow up") is a transitional stage of physical and psychological human development generally occurring between puberty and legal adulthood.

Mike, you show your adolescence when you have to resort to calling people “stupid” and a “f*cking idiot” to prove your point. Very classy, Mike. Then again, I really expected nothing less.

Edited to add: Yes, Mike, cammb and I did get a little twisted up in a disagreement of opinions...and we still disagree. He prefers collecting graded cards, I prefer raw. It's was a silly fight over a matter of opinion. But here's the difference in us and you. Cammb and I realized we were acting childish and apologized to each other and the board for our behavior. You see nothing wrong with your name calling and would never apologize for anything. As far as card colllecting goes, I may not agree with cammb and he may not agree with me, but we respect each other's opinion and each other. He's a stand up guy in my book.


Edited by vintagetoppsguy (10/21/12 06:13 PM)
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#2011899 - 10/21/12 05:50 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
BigRedOne
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Now Now Boys... I think we all get a little heated sometimes when trying to convince others of
our point of views and opinions.

Its been a lively debate here.

We all seem to be big football fans so we do have common ground there.

Soooooo, I think were can all find more common ground and come to the reasonable agreement that Im sure we all know to be true.............

Earl Morrall was the Greatest QB of all time!!!!
I know it was a close call that he just barely edged out Billy Kilmer.

There..... see how easy that was.

John
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#2011900 - 10/21/12 05:52 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: BigRedOne]
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#2011906 - 10/21/12 06:32 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: Blackie]
33rdStreet
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Don't even wanna know who y'all think the best running back is!!!
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#2011907 - 10/21/12 06:33 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: Blackie]
BigRedOne
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Look at that! Good ole Earl in all of his glory!
Great pic Rob.

Griese gets the press, but I do believe that it was Earl who direct most of the wins in that undefeated season after Greise got hurt.

Tex? how many rings Earl have? Couple with the Colts, the Dolphin win. More?

Had Kilmer and his "Over the Hill Gang" been able to conquer those Dolphins in the Superbowl, I may have gave him the nod. But as it stands......

Earl Morrall remains the Greates QB of all time.
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#2011908 - 10/21/12 06:36 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
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Actually, Peyton Manning is my idol. VTG is runnerup.
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#2011910 - 10/21/12 06:42 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: BigRedOne]
BigRedOne
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Come on now 33rd
What are you trying to do cause WWIII.

Besides Everybody knows Walt Garrison was the Greatest back EVER! Lil' Pudin was tough as nails!

John

John
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#2011911 - 10/21/12 06:46 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: 33rdStreet]
vintagetoppsguy
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 Originally Posted By: 33rdStreet
Don't even wanna know who y'all think the best running back is!!!


Well, since you asked...

According to the board know it all, "Greatness begins with championships won." That would be none other than Franco Harris (4 SB rings). If you don't agree with that then you are "stupid" and a "f*cking idiot."

BTW, no I don't belive Harris is the greatest running back ever (not even close)


Edited by vintagetoppsguy (10/21/12 06:47 PM)
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#2011914 - 10/21/12 06:52 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
33rdStreet
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I had to do it! I'm not even gonna say mine. You guys can slug it out on that one to!
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#2011915 - 10/21/12 06:56 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: BigRedOne]
bbo
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 Originally Posted By: BigRedOne
Besides Everybody knows Walt Garrison was the Greatest back EVER! Lil' Pudin was tough as nails!


Walt was a tough SOB, but your Cowboys bias may be showing through.

Rocky Bleier gets the nod in my book. Volunteer Vietnam Vet, shot in both legs, weighed about 180. Then came back to play because he was asked to. That's a football player right there. Plus, it's hard to ignore all those damn rings!!

Anyone not old enough to remember Bleier play needs to rent some NFL films and suspend posting on message boards until one changes one's mind.
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#1 in 1959 Topps. Officially known as Assassin according to stanthemanfan 3/31/2014 and god of minor league basketball according to cammb.

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#2011917 - 10/21/12 07:03 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
Blackie
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Just some of my favorites by pic.............here is a few more


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#2011918 - 10/21/12 08:06 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: Blackie]
BigRedOne
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Well, I will have to give you Rocky Bleier.
But Walt Garrison did bite the end of his tougne off in a game one. And he did get some hardware in 71.

Both Greats of the game for sure.

Larry Brown tough runner that as a Cowboy fan I hated seeing come to town. Tex says he was also color blind. After that hit he took from the "no Name Defense" that they show on NFL films all the time, I don't know how he wasn't permanately blind! A great back he was.
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#2011924 - 10/22/12 05:16 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: BigRedOne]
gaugman
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 Originally Posted By: BigRedOne
Everybody knows Walt Garrison was the Greatest back EVER!

John


Walt Garrison was/is my all time favorite football player. It's because of him I became a Cowboy fan.

In 1971 he shared a backfield with Duane Thomas and Calvin Hill. Now that was a great backfield!

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#2011926 - 10/22/12 06:09 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: BigRedOne]
trex
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[quote=BigRedOne

Larry Brown tough runner that as a Cowboy fan I hated seeing come to town. Tex says he was also color blind.

[/quote]

Now hold on a minute, I didn't say Larry Brown was color blind. He had a hearing impairment which caused him to be slow off the snap. When Lombardi was coaching the Redskins, he noticed this and had his helmet fitted with an ear piece that relayed Jurgensen's snap counts which improved his responsiveness off the snap.

Roger Staubach was color blind. He could have avoided his military obligation because of it but refused. Just one more reason why he's not only the best at his position but also as a human being. IMO.

Earl Morrall holds three SB rings, V, VII, VII.

Walt Garrison was one of my all-time favorite power fullbacks. Don Meridith said it best, "If it was third down, and you needed four yards, if you'd get the ball to Walt Garrison, he'd get ya five. And if it was third down and ya needed twenty yards, if you'd get the ball to Walt Garrison, by God, he'd get you five." He was also a professional rodeo, steer wrestler, I think it was a steer wrestler. Anyway he injured his knee in a rodeo incident which ended his pro football career. He is an inductee of the Texas Cowboy Hall of Fame for his rodeo prowess. But i think my all-time favorite power fullback would have to be Jim Taylor of the Packers.
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#2011928 - 10/22/12 08:54 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: trex]
cammb
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In my book, Jim Brown is #1 followed by Larry Csonka.
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#2011943 - 10/23/12 08:01 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: cammb]
BigRedOne
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Thanks for correcting me on that Jim. Larry Brown was probably deaf and blind after that hit.

Do you guys know the hit Im talking about?

I think it might have been in the Super Bowl against the Dolphins.

It knocked his helmet clean off his head.


John
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#2011944 - 10/23/12 08:11 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: BigRedOne]
BigRedOne
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That hit on Brown is in this Clip. This guy was fearless and I don't know how he survived. Notice when he gets by the sidelines.

There's no running(skipping) out of bounds here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HxHyHkhdXo


Edited by BigRedOne (10/23/12 08:13 AM)
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#2011947 - 10/23/12 08:20 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: BigRedOne]
33rdStreet
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Yeah speaking of running out of bounds my youngest son asked me last night...Dad why does the runner always run out of bounds if the object is to get as many yards as you can???? I didnt have a good reply, well I had one but I am glad it didnt come out!!
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#2011957 - 10/23/12 03:38 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: 33rdStreet]
brewing
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With the career expectancy of an NFL running back being incredibly short. I'm fine with someone stepping out of bounds after the 1st down is achieved to avoid a hit.
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#2011962 - 10/23/12 05:06 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: BigRedOne]
Blackie
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 Originally Posted By: BigRedOne
That hit on Brown is in this Clip. This guy was fearless and I don't know how he survived. Notice when he gets by the sidelines.

There's no running(skipping) out of bounds here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HxHyHkhdXo


Awsome Video..........the guys a machine! That is what I call "pay dirt" football........thanks for sharing John!
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#2011970 - 10/24/12 05:04 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: Blackie]
gaugman
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No doubt Larry Brown was talented but was also one tough S.O.B. What makes that video great was the " voice of god".
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#2011989 - 10/25/12 04:21 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: gaugman]
Toledo Mudhen
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Just to stir the pot a bit

LENNY MOORE

HOF Class of 1975
Flanker-Running Back >>> 6-1, 191
(Penn State)
1956-1967 Baltimore Colts

Leonard Edward Moore. . .No. 1 draft choice, 1956. . .Rookie of Year, 1956. . .Started as a flanker, moved to running back in 1961. . . Amassed 12,451 combined net yards, 5,174 yards rushing, 363 receptions for 6,039 yards. . .Scored 113 TDs, 678 points. . .All-NFL five years. . . Played in seven Pro Bowls. . .NFL Player of the Year and Comeback Player of Year, 1964. . .Scored touchdowns in record 18 straight games, 1963-1965. . .Born November 25, 1933, in Reading, Pennsylvania.

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#2011991 - 10/25/12 04:36 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: Toledo Mudhen]
BigRedOne
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Lenny Moore IS the MAN!

No Argument here!
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#2011992 - 10/25/12 05:13 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: BigRedOne]
trex
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 Originally Posted By: BigRedOne

No Argument here!


None here, he was a great one to watch.
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#2011998 - 10/25/12 03:43 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: Toledo Mudhen]
cammb
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Agree. Great running back.
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#2012017 - 10/26/12 04:55 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: cammb]
Toledo Mudhen
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So now we know who all the Old guys are. I was 10 years old in 66 living in Toledo Ohio. Johnny U and the Colts were way high on the "idols" list
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#2012018 - 10/26/12 07:48 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: Toledo Mudhen]
bbo
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 Originally Posted By: Toledo Mudhen
So now we know who all the Old guys are.

LOL
Was it that difficult to figure out?
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#2012021 - 10/26/12 11:12 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: Toledo Mudhen]
cammb
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I'm not old, I just look it.
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#2012026 - 10/26/12 12:54 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: cammb]
trex
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I don't look it, I'm just old.
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#2012028 - 10/26/12 01:43 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: trex]
hitman
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I'm not as old as you geezers but my all time favorite running back is Walter Payton with Sanders a close second. I just remember him always punishing a defensive back before getting tackled or push out of bounds. He also played with a bad Bears team for years and everybody knew he was getting the ball 25-30 times a game and still could not contain him.Just my 2 cent opinion.
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#2012037 - 10/27/12 05:15 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: hitman]
brick
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I forget.
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#2012038 - 10/27/12 12:45 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: brick]
BigRedOne
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Walter was a very Special back

Speaking of "pushing back"

Many great backs have been mentioned here.

While Ive been blessed enough to see many of them play.

BUT..... NEVER..... I mean NEVER! have I ever seen the kind of absolute destruction caused on a football field as that done by Earl Campbell.

The guy was like a man amongest boys! An absolute trainwreck! Not only did he batter defenders like Ive never seen before(or since for that matter)

But he also had sprinter speed and great moves.

The guy was a one man wrecking crew on the football field. I mean this has got to be scarey stuff for an opposing team to see in the film room the night before steping on the field with this guy.

Just ask All-Pro Linebacker Isah Robertson if he wants to jump in front of Earl Campbell again.

The Tyler Rose was the Greatest most devastating back Ive ever seen.

I still say Earl's Oilers were robbed in that Championship game against the Steelers on the Renfro Catch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui844C3TQVI
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#2012039 - 10/27/12 01:10 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: BigRedOne]
bbo
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Earl can barely walk today. Almost a cripple. But still has a pretty good attitude at shows when he signs. According to rumors I hear, he insists on being paid in cash.
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#2012040 - 10/27/12 03:01 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
BigRedOne
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Has it really been 15 years ago when I met Earl?

He was having trouble then but still walking. I know he has become progressively worse. His body took a heavy toll and thats kind of a shame to see.

I always thought he would be this giant beast of a man when I met him. But other than those enormous legs he had he appeared quite normal and a very humble man.

I had two items signed by Earl at that time.

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#2012100 - 10/28/12 05:02 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
bbo
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 Originally Posted By: bbo
QB's are measured by championships more than any other position and any other sport. (referring to P.Manning)


I can't believe what I just heard on the Sunday night NBC pregame show! It was like I was in the twilight zone. I can't get over what I just heard.

Dan Patrick, cutting to a commercial, introduced the next segment with Bob Costas interviewing John Elway. Patrick said (paraphrase, because I don't have TIVO), What will it take to put Peyton Manning among the greats at quarterback?

Then they show Elway, saying (again, paraphrased), Well the measure of great quarterbacks always begins with "championships won."

What???

Could that be true? Did I get it right two weeks ago? STOP THE PRESSES. SUSPEND THE MESSAGE BOARD.

Wait for it.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
bbo was right {Hallelujah Chorus breaks out}.

Then I flipped over to Fox to watch the end of the Dallas-NY Giants game, you know, the one with the truly great Manning QB, and I missed the entire Elway piece, if there was one. Thankfully, Costas said, tune in tomorrow at 5pm Eastern on the NFL network for the full interview.

Whew! Redemption cometh in less than 24 hours.
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