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#2011753 - 10/16/12 12:29 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
bbo
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QB's are measured by championships more than any other position and any other sport. QB's have so much control of and exert leadership in the game, more than a point guard in basketball and more than a pitcher in baseball (who only pitches every 5th day). Football is unique among the major team sports in that regard. The greatest QB's win multiple championships. That's just the way it is. So let's keep it to football and not go down a rabbit trail. (Nice try at diverting, though.)

I left out Bart Starr and Johnny Unitas. Name the third best, or 5th best, or 10th best QB in the 60's and 50's.

I'll wait.
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#2011764 - 10/17/12 09:34 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
bbo
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Still waiting.

You're probably having trouble coming up with even the stat-sheet stuffers from those decades.

I'm sure you're tempted to recall "great" QB's such as Tarkenton, Griese, Staubach & Stabler (70's), and Fouts (80's). But as the years go by the memory fades. In the end, it's championships that stand out.
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#2011765 - 10/17/12 10:35 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
cammb
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MVP award is a performance driven award. The writers who vote get to see these players more than we do so I dont see the overrated aspect. So by your standards, Trent Dilfer is as good as Peyton Manning.
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#2011766 - 10/17/12 10:37 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: vintagetoppsguy]
cammb
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If Brady and Rodgers are overrated, what quarter back , in your opinion, isn't.
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#2011767 - 10/17/12 11:12 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: cammb]
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Only way to judge NFL quaterbacks is by era and I think its safe to say that Brady and Manning are interchanable at 1-2 of there era. There era being the era of over inflated offensive stats. Think bbo has a point that championships are whats remembered by the casual fan but there have been plenty of "game managers' that have super bowl rings. The fact is that year in and year out Brady and Manning give there teams the best chance to get there. Think you have to give Rogers more time to put him in there class. IMHO
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#2011768 - 10/17/12 11:32 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: cammb]
bbo
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 Originally Posted By: cammb
Trent Dilfer is as good as Peyton Manning.


Who is Trent Dilfer?
Who is Peyton Manning?

Greatness begins with championships won. Not statistics, not media or MVP voting, not even Pro Bowls (which we all know is a joke). Multiple rings (2 or more) is what I've said previously in this thread. So I'll stick with that.

Now which of those two guys have won more than one Championship? Everybody knows that the Baltimore Defense won that SB. Ray Lewis was the SB MVP. Same with the '85 Bears and Dent getting the SB MVP over Jim McMahon.

Who was that Redskins QB from Grambling that was QB when Washington won in the early 80's, Doug Williams? Didn't Theismann win one SB? One-time SB-winning QB's that aren't even in the conversation when it comes to greatness include Namath in addition to Williams and Theismann.
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#2011769 - 10/17/12 11:41 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
cammb
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Mike, you have to be the only one in this country to say that Peyton Manning isn't great. Come on now, if he weren't great why would all those teams go after him, even at his age, and offer him all that money? Did they think he was overrated? I think they would know better than us, the fans.
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#2011770 - 10/17/12 11:54 AM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: cammb]
bbo
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I didn't say he wasn't "great." He has great numbers, is smart, reads defenses well and engineers comebacks (though he is not the best at that). What he doesn't do is win multiple Super Bowls that would put him in the class of the greatest.

The discussion is about over rated QB's. VTG said Brady and Rodgers were over rated. How can Brady be over rated when he was drafted in the 6th round and has won 3 Super Bowls and went 18-1 to lose in the 4th SB? By definition he was UNDER-rated and outperformed expectations.

How can Rodgers be over rated when he was relegated to holding the clipboard for a QB who wouldn't quit and Rodgers leads the league this year in QB rating, won a SB and went 15-1 last year, defending GB's championship before getting bounced in the playoffs by the eventual winner?

Manning couldn't win the SEC title in college and has won just a single SB in the pros, with teams LOADED with receivers and running backs. Little brother Eli has passed him up already. Peyton Manning is more over rated than Brady or Rodgers. Manning hasn't lived up to his hype. Sure Manning has numbers/stats, but he's not even the best in his generation at winning championships. Brady, Big Ben and Eli have exceeded him and Rodgers and Brees have equaled him. Now, who is more likely to win another SB, Peyton Manning or Tom Brady or Drew Brees or Big Ben?
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#2011771 - 10/17/12 12:23 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: bbo]
cammb
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I defer to the peo[ple that know more than we do, like the players , coaches and owners and Sports Illustrated who declared Manning the NFL Player of the Decade of the 2000s.
As far as Eli goes, if it wasn't for a miracle catch by Tyree on his helmet that game would be over and the Giants. By the way, the Giants D won that game. And if Welker cathes a ball that ordinaily he catches that game would have been over and little brother Eli would be o for 2. Again, If the colts dont sit on the ball before the first half ends and play their game, maybe that would have beeen a win for them.. There are a lot of what ifs and maybes in all these games. You judge greatness on super bowl wins, i judge on the body of work. I sgree that Brady is far from overrated, to me he is number 1, and I'm a Manning fan.

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#2011772 - 10/17/12 01:52 PM Re: GB vs. Seattle: Did the refs get it right? [Re: cammb]
bbo
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Then we agree. To me, Brady is in the top 5 in my lifetime, Manning is not. For the record, in no particular order, I have Brady, Johnny Unitas, Joe Montana, Bart Starr and Roger Staubach. Otto Graham may be the all-time best, but I never saw him play.

My second five has to include (based upon sheer tenacity, big-time record and will to win), Elway, Griese, Stabler, Favre and maybe Len Dawson. I loved watching Stabler play, greatest southpaw ever. He had more Houdini in him than Fran Tarkenton and Steve Young combined.

Both Mannings are in the second ten somewhere along with Simms, Steve Young, Kurt Warner, Aikman and Marino. In fact, Manning, Warner and Marino are all about the same to me. Big, strong, great technique, lots of yards, limited mobility, but just one or two SB trips.

Players such as Tarkenton, Jim Kelly and Warren Moon could certainly sling it and deserve mention, but not in the top echelon. Bradshaw is an anomaly. Not really a good QB by any standard measure, but clearly a leader and winner. Greatly benefitted from a coach who let him play and players surrounding him who made him better, rather than the other way around.

It's one thing to have a single, championship season such as what Namath, Brees and (almost) Marino, but it's tough to come back and do it multiple times, especially with different teams. If Manning can somehow win a title with Denver, I may move him into the top 10, ahead of Dawson, Stabler and maybe Favre.
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