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#2013039 - 11/30/12 04:43 PM Bad, bad, bad, bad.....
DrD
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Mastro = guilty plea ---- PSA?

Wonder why PSA was not mentioned in this article?
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#2013040 - 11/30/12 04:47 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: DrD]
Blackie
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Wow!
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#2013042 - 11/30/12 04:58 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: DrD]
bbo
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I am shocked! Utterly and completely shocked, I tell you!! \:o How could this happen when the President of the company that graded the card signs off on every one of his SMR editorials with the moniker, "Never get cheated."
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#2013043 - 11/30/12 05:35 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: bbo]
33rdStreet
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Is it really news that the Wagner was trimmed? That's been known for awhile
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#2013044 - 11/30/12 05:42 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: 33rdStreet]
Blackie
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I know its been said alot but really how many other high end HOF rookies and star cards do you think are altered in some way?
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#2013045 - 11/30/12 05:48 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: bbo]
FYS
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 Originally Posted By: bbo
I am shocked! Utterly and completely shocked, I tell you!! \:o How could this happen when the President of the company that graded the card signs off on every one of his SMR editorials with the moniker, "Never get cheated."


Mastro is obviously a P.O.S, but if a TPG knowingly slabs a trimmed card and puts a grade on it, despite it being against written policy, have any liability or onus?
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#2013046 - 11/30/12 05:54 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: DrD]
FYS
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 Originally Posted By: DrD
Mastro = guilty plea ---- PSA?

Wonder why PSA was not mentioned in this article?


We shall see what the plea agreement states. Whether it is industry clout or power or what, seems as if Mastro would have tried some argument that the authenticators are to blame on this i.e. who cares if I alter, other people are paid to say it is altered or not. Although maybe true, Mastro would likely be chastised even more with that argument so chose the honorable route and simply admits guilt.
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#2013050 - 11/30/12 06:56 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: FYS]
bbo
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Something in the back of my memory banks tells me that PSA once tried to use the "out" that they only render an opinion, but some judge said, No. They hold themselves out to the public as an expert authenticator and therefore, can't have it both ways.

The company and to some extent the entire hobby was built upon this Wagner card being legitimate. The plea bargain brings all of that into clear question now. It's the smoking gun. Why can't they all be prosecuted on the RICO statutes? (Conspiring as organized crime.)
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#2013052 - 11/30/12 07:30 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: bbo]
trex
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 Originally Posted By: bbo
Something in the back of my memory banks tells me that PSA once tried to use the "out" that they only render an opinion, but some judge said, No. They hold themselves out to the public as an expert authenticator and therefore, can't have it both ways.

The company and to some extent the entire hobby was built upon this Wagner card being legitimate. The plea bargain brings all of that into clear question now. It's the smoking gun. Why can't they all be prosecuted on the RICO statutes? (Conspiring as organized crime.)


There ya go.
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#2013053 - 11/30/12 07:47 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: trex]
FYS
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 Originally Posted By: trex
 Originally Posted By: bbo
Something in the back of my memory banks tells me that PSA once tried to use the "out" that they only render an opinion, but some judge said, No. They hold themselves out to the public as an expert authenticator and therefore, can't have it both ways.

The company and to some extent the entire hobby was built upon this Wagner card being legitimate. The plea bargain brings all of that into clear question now. It's the smoking gun. Why can't they all be prosecuted on the RICO statutes? (Conspiring as organized crime.)


There ya go.


If Mastro is going to get in trouble for selling the card and not divulging the fact that it was altered in auctions and not the actual act of the alteration, how many others have sold the card and either knew it was altered or was aware there was enough smoke about the card being altered and the honorable thing to do would note that fact, but they stood mute?
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#2013055 - 11/30/12 08:11 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: FYS]
33rdStreet
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Considering that it's been a semi fact that the card was in a holder but either sheet cut or altered in some way and PSA keeps getting submission after submission means nothing's gonna happen. They will spin it some way and move on. I feel pretty secure saying all of our lesser cards ( assuming none off us here have wagners or similar stuff) would come back altered if they where trimmed or whatever. I mean is there really a reason for PSA to holder my 57 Aaron if it was trimmed, probably not. Every company wants the wagners or planks or rare cracker jacks in their holders. Stupid move on their part not calling it a altered card if it came out 5 years after they started, probably a killer for the brand but let's face it PSA is cemented in the Hobby and the hobby was here before PSA. People love sports and sports memorabilia. Things won't change any. JMHO
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#2013063 - 12/01/12 03:55 AM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: 33rdStreet]
Toledo Mudhen
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Just another example of PSA "preferred grading" status............. It's been goin on for years

They do the same thing (to a lesser degree) for "volume" dealers.....

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#2013066 - 12/01/12 04:09 AM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: Toledo Mudhen]
Blackie
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I agree with ya! You can see a good example of that with 707 Sportscards and 4Sharpcorners. Overgrading all over the place
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#2013068 - 12/01/12 06:59 AM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: Blackie]
FYS
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 Originally Posted By: Blackie
I agree with ya! You can see a good example of that with 707 Sportscards and 4Sharpcorners. Overgrading all over the place


There is one thing about your best customers getting the benefit of the doubt, but it is an entirely different thing to deliberately and deceivingly live a lie for 21 years on which is the foundation of the business. The first is human nature, the second is criminal.
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#2013079 - 12/01/12 01:13 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: FYS]
BigRedOne
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This is one of the issues I was banned from the CU board for commenting on as "Conspiracy Theory".

Its just unbelievable how the PSA apologists still try to avoid the issue of PSA's moral and ethical role in this matter by constantly referring to the Auction house fraud and focusing on Bill Mastro as the problem.

The PSA apologists are at it again in the Thread across the street.
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=873771&STARTPAGE=1


One flaming idiot states how he recieves cards back from psa all the time for "Evd trimming"
and that PSA is doing the best they can and simply can not catch them all.

Are human beings really this stupid?

To think that the top graders and experts at PSA reviewed the most valuable and iconic card in the hobby and just happend to "Not catch it" ? Really?

Another across the street actually suggested that because of the card's hobby status that it deserved "special" treatment to be slab as an 8 knowlingly overlooking its altered status.
SERIOUSLY? It deserved to not be noted as Trimmed because of the status of the card to the hobby? REALLY?

There is no doubt in my mind that the card was knowningly slabbed by PSA for the reconition and status it would bring to the PSA brand. As the "so called" leader in Authentication, They had a moral obligation to authenticate the card, reguardless of it's hobby status. They choose to forego their Moral or ethical responsiblity to the collecting community, for the high press and brand reconition they knew such an iconic card would bring the PSA brand. In short it was GREED.

It is sad that most people who are heavily embedded in the PSA registry will also be more than willing to throw their morals and Ethics to the roadside as well in order to protect the precious "value" of their PSA sets. I suppose thats just the world we now live in, where things like honesty, honor and basic human Morals and ethics are just a passing thought often left behind in favor of greed and corruption.

Personally, I don't think this will change a thing for PSA. The blind will continue to accept the Moral and ethical corruption at their expense in order to maintain the precived monetary value of their collections. From Adolph Hitler to Jim Jones, its amazing that human beings are still more than willing to be herded like sheep to slaughter for a chance to grab at the Golden Ring, even dispite the fact that they know the ring is not really gold, but rather simple pot metal, rattle canned with some shiney paint.

"Never be Cheated"

John







Edited by BigRedOne (12/01/12 05:54 PM)
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#2013087 - 12/01/12 04:52 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: BigRedOne]
trex
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+1. My hope is I live long enough to see all the corruption in that cesspool, bring it down and take all the Kool-Aid drinkers with it. If you can't tell, I have no empathy for the jerks in that corrupt organization whatsoever. You sleep with dogs you get fleas.

Now, can we talk about a subject more pleasant, rather than dwell on an over sized Porta-Pottie, or a Facebook on steroids.
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#2013091 - 12/01/12 05:26 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: FYS]
33rdStreet
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Man ol man lol the PSA hatred runs deep!!!
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#2013095 - 12/01/12 06:06 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: 33rdStreet]
BigRedOne
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I do not hate PSA as a whole. The vast majority of cards they deal with are treated and graded properly under their stated guidelines by many honest and hard working people working there.

My problem is with the likely few egos at the top that are responsible for the corruption like the Wagner card and other suspect practices that likely feel they are untouchable.


John
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#2013099 - 12/01/12 06:26 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: BigRedOne]
33rdStreet
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They probably are right? Just the facts. I use both I've said that before, also said I prefer SGC just wish they had a better selection out there. I think they scammed everyone on that Wagner but when it comes down to that kind of card and many like it are and never will be something I deal with. I'm a bottom feeder trying for nice grades on my 50's commons! Ive had cards come back trimmed or altered from both companies. I just think with all the griping about buying the card not the holder than that's just what I'll continue to do. Saw a comment where someone stated this will be a blip on the radar. I think it will to. That may be the most celebrated card graded but it's one of probably 25 million plus. There are other huge cards out there graded by psa and SGC for them to hang there hat on. If it came out that SGC wrongly graded a Wagner just to have it IN THEIR holder I'll still be sending my 54's in because they look awesome in the SGC holder. Guess I'm a halfwit but it's just a hobby to me. One I love but one where the enjoyment comes from it's connection to the past and my childhood.
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#2013114 - 12/01/12 08:03 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: BigRedOne]
cammb
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Well said.
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#2013115 - 12/01/12 08:08 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: 33rdStreet]
BigRedOne
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There is a big difference between

"wrongly graded" and Knowingly misgrading
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#2013121 - 12/01/12 08:23 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: BigRedOne]
33rdStreet
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I agree with that, they were wrong but in the grand scheme of things I guess I'm saying I could care less is all. Think TPG's are good for the hobby and have done more good than harm. There are crooks all over, without PSA there probably wouldn't be an SGC.
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#2013122 - 12/01/12 08:25 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: 33rdStreet]
Blackie
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SGC has better holders... just sayin
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#2013123 - 12/01/12 08:26 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: 33rdStreet]
33rdStreet
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And although that card is a landmark in the hobby anyone who throws 2.8 million at one card is a little nuts IMO I'd be just as happy with a
Beautitful topps runs from 52 to now.... Pretty sure that would get me one and then some.

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#2013124 - 12/01/12 08:26 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: 33rdStreet]
33rdStreet
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Lol I completely agree Rob
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#2013125 - 12/01/12 08:32 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: 33rdStreet]
Blackie
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Has PSA made any statements?
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#2013126 - 12/01/12 08:36 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: Blackie]
33rdStreet
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I'm betting they try to let it fade away or stick with the "we knew it was trimmed but couldn't let a card like that stay out a holder so..."! Will be interesting to see how they handle it for sure.
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#2013127 - 12/01/12 08:42 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: 33rdStreet]
Blackie
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Very true.
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#2013128 - 12/01/12 09:29 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: 33rdStreet]
BigRedOne
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33rd

I admire your passion for the hobby and enjoy many of the insightful threads you bring to light on this board.

But I must say I am very surprised by some of your comments concerning this kind of matter.

You don't care that those the hobby entrusts to Authenticate and validate the cards and other collectibles do it with Ethical and honest professionalism?

Just because that particluar card doesn't personally effect you that makes it OK?
As long as it's some other poor smuck being cheated thats ok?

Would it then be accurate to assume you don't care about those Ethical and moral values when dealing with others yourself?

Sadly this is the kind of attitude that has been eroding the Moral and ethical fiber of not only this hobby, but our country as well.

Where does it end? When it does directly get to you?

Do we just continue to turn a blind eye to the corruption that cripples our banking system? Only to bail them out on our tax dollars and then turn right around and let them continue to do the same thing again? Where does it end? Do we just not demand that people be accountable for their actions?

Crooked lawyers to corrupt politicians are fleecing our once great country into Mediocrity.
Why? Because nobody could care less? Until it effects their bottom line personally and by then its too late to cry foul.

You gotta Stand for Something or you'll fall for anything.

Unfortunately more and more are willing to just fall for anything.

John

PS: I do believe SGC was grading cards before PSA arrived.



Edited by BigRedOne (12/01/12 10:23 PM)
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#2013136 - 12/02/12 06:17 AM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: BigRedOne]
bbo
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BigRedOne is right on all counts. Even the PS.
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#2013140 - 12/02/12 06:26 AM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: bbo]
gaugman
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 Originally Posted By: bbo
BigRedOne is right on all counts. Even the PS.


AGREE

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#2013142 - 12/02/12 07:09 AM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: gaugman]
33rdStreet
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I will respectfully bow out of this argument lol. I'll just post once more on it because after all it all about an opinion. As BigRedOne said I enjoy the passion demonstrated by the regular members of this board which is why I post here, it's very refreshing. I do agree with everyone that is mad with PSA I just choose to not get irate about it is all. This is my hobby and they are cards. The simple fact is it has always been easier for me to find cards via PSA than SGC or any other company. I have as much PSA stuff as SGC and like alot of you believe they do a decent job. If they take a giant hit for this then oh well, looks like SGC gains ground right. Just one more thing and I usually don't say this kind of crap but I've re-enlisted 3 times during a time of conflict I have strong beliefs when it comes to what I think is right and what I think is wrong and morality but this is cards guys. If PSA tanks then oh well guess the deserve it and I may be crossing a boat load of cards all I ever really stated was I don't think it affects them any. If the TPG thing tanks I guess we all go back to trying to buy cards from the overwieght guy behind the table at shows who thinks his whole table is mint quality. Fine by me I take my wife to shows and dress her up and sick her on those guys to get deals....... Gotta do what you gotta do.
Like I said I never said I disagreed really with anyone's anger towards PSA. They lied they should pay the price if it comes to that I just hope the other companies haven't done the same.

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#2013154 - 12/02/12 09:13 AM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: BigRedOne]
trex
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Very well said John and spot on in IMO. BBO made a comment the other day about the "dumbing down of America." The folks on the other side of the street could be a poster child for that statement. The thought process there is "Hey I know PSA is corrupt, I know they're unethical, but it don't affect my portfolio/registry yet, so what." "How many ways can I spin this, then just stick my head in the sand and hope it goes away." "Let's just give them a pass on this", their mantra. More Kool-Aid please. "As long as I get my propaganda magazine every month and attend the yearly rubber chicken kumbayah, who cares."

It's just amazing to me what we, American's, have come to tolerate these days. Whatever happened to the moral and ethical compass that made America exceptional. Seems at least in this hobby as it pertains to the aforementioned group, it's been replaced with a number on a piece of plastic and whatever it takes to get that.

I suppose a good analogy would be an auto accident with injuries and you're the first to arrive on the scene, do you just turn your head and say "whew that looked pretty bad" and just drive on by. "Glad that didn't affect me." "I haven't the time to stop, gotta get to my kumbayah meeting and receive my rubber chicken."

John makes reference to the Aaron Tippin song "You gotta Stand for Something or you'll fall for anything." How true that is. Sadly, as a country we're falling for anything.

Just my humble opinion.
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#2013155 - 12/02/12 09:39 AM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: trex]
33rdStreet
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Trex,

Not attempting to argue about any if this but there are plenty of great young Americans out there. I've seen it first hand.

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#2013158 - 12/02/12 10:08 AM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: 33rdStreet]
gaugman
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I really don't think this has anything to do with, "dumbing down of America" and whether or not there are, "plenty of great young Americans" because there certainly are great Americans and 33rdStreet, you surely are a great American,a Patriot. A hero

I think it all comes down to what Big Red said, there is a difference between
"wrongly graded" and Knowingly misgrading

You really can't allow it.

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#2013160 - 12/02/12 10:15 AM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: gaugman]
33rdStreet
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Point taken
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#2013178 - 12/02/12 12:31 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: 33rdStreet]
BigRedOne
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Im glad we are all able to have such a civil discussion here on such a "Hot" issue.
By now this would have turned into a ugly name calling thread anywhere else but here.

First, Thank you for your service "33rd", I do agree with you that if the whole TPGing thing collapsed and went away and all the cards became worthless as far as money goes, I would not have a problem with that. In fact, I would almost welcome that! It would purge our great hobby of all the greed and corruption as well as rid it of all the "Whats it worth" Label collectors who are in the hobby for no other reason than the monetary value they place on the cards. They might as well just be blank pieces of cardboard.

I would still be here after the Apocalypse, Likely enjoying making my favorite sets without having to "break the bank" for some "Low Pop" common card that people like to believe is worth some extrodinary amount of money because of the label some corperate company put on it.

With nothing but the true nostalgia collectors remaining(all 25-30 of us LOL) we would be free of the stigma of monetary value and be able to simply trade cards accordingly.

Grading of course would still be a subjective point. Just imagine.... an online site just for trading cards! Not that there wouldn't likely be a few disagreements, but with no monetary value involved, all the corrupt money grubbing scummbags would move on to deflower and corrupt some other area of society where the money is at.

The only value of the cards now would be the strength and affection for our favorite players.

Mantle,Ruth, Cobb would still command great trade value.

I may swap you my extra 58 Jim Brown Rookie, but come on dude! Your offering up some 66 Philly commons and a 76 Dennis Eckersley Rookie?

If you throw in that 57 Bart Starr Rookie we'll have ourselves a DEAL!

One can only hope! LOL


I also don't view them as "Only Cards"

To me they reprsent a part of our nation's history. They chronicle the history of many of our nation's greatest heroes. Heroes who had to overcome great odds, from Jessie Owens' Olympic dominance in the face of Nazi tyranny to Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier against all odds, to the inspirational human stories of Gale Sayers and Brian Piccolo and Rockey Blier.
Legendary tales of the American Spirit.

Card Collecting and its history through the 50's, 60's & 70's was a special time and it was uniquely American. It reprsents EVERYTHING these radical Muslim towelheads blow themselves up trying to destroy. Indeed they are more than just cards to me and I will do my best to defend them at all cost... Ok , Ok Somebody Please Stop Me here!

I love ya ALL! and the great cards you all bring to light here! Keep em Honest!


John
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#2013182 - 12/02/12 01:26 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: BigRedOne]
33rdStreet
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I used the term only cards in terms of the bigger picture meaning there are larger things in life. I collect because I love the game, baseball and football. It's an extension of my childhood and it was my connection to my father in alot of ways. It's my geek outlet.....everytime I pull out the loop and start looking at my cards my wife grills me " oh look at the big bad Marine DI!!! Your such a geek!!!". Immediately I am put in my place lol!

BigRedOne I am sure we could sit down and talk football all day and have s hell of a time doing it.

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#2013184 - 12/02/12 01:33 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: 33rdStreet]
Blackie
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Love you guys!!!! So glad there are others that collect for the love of collecting and not some monetary value. Too bad we have to pay so much for nice cards but i guess thats part of it.
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#2013191 - 12/02/12 03:08 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: Blackie]
royalbrett
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I am also one of those who could care less if graded cards suddenly became worthless. See my sig for what I collect. You think I give a crap about value?
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#2013228 - 12/02/12 07:09 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: royalbrett]
BigRedOne
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I hear ya 33rd, there are larger things in life, thats for sure.

But it is the little things like the childhood memories of our fathers and loved ones that we share a common link to the past through the power of these little pasteboard cards. No amount of money can buy that, and in the world of card collecting nothing could be bigger.

Obviously its nice to think ones collection hold some kind of monetary value, Im not going to deny that. But when the precieved value becomes more the focus than the card itself, I'll find another hobby. Knitting or something LOL!

So why wait to talk FOOTBALL! Blackie pulled out a Jim Brown rookie on me he picked up. so I better put my worse for wear Jim Brown up! Actually other than the pencil mark and the dinged top corner it ain't really all that bad.

I know, I know... I touted myself as a centering freak, but we all know thats not always possible.
Maybe some day I'll gather up some pop bottles and get down to the local drug store and pick me up a nicer one. LOL!!

One thing IS for sure. Jim Brown was a man among boys.



Be safe all!!

John



Edited by BigRedOne (12/02/12 07:13 PM)
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#2013232 - 12/02/12 08:09 PM Re: Bad, bad, bad, bad..... [Re: BigRedOne]
33rdStreet
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Registered: 08/30/12
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A man among boys is damn right!!!
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