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#211969 - 09/11/03 05:37 AM Disenchantment with PSA
Davalillo1
Collector is an understatement.


Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 119

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This is my first post on the SGC Boards. I hope to be able to add my thoughts to posts from time to time.
As a way of introducing myself, I believe I am the largest owner of psa-graded cards in the country(colse to 20,000) and am attempting to build over 100 vintage pre-war and post-war sets in baseball, football, basketball and hockey in psa 8 or better. Some 80% of my collection is baseball. Most cards(over 15,000) I have submitted myself--the others I have bought from a variety of psa dealers. I also try to upgrade any card that comes back from psa in less than a 8.
I have recently become quite disenchanted with PSA and after being a regular poster on their message boards for the past 18 months, have made the decision to stop posting.
Below is a brief summary of some of my views. I could go into any of these in more detail in the future.
1)The PSA president has to be the most customer unfriendly person I have ever seen running a company. My job is to analyze different companies in different businesses and I spend a lot of my time talking with senior managements. Because I am a large customer, I asked him to do certain favors for me--more clerical things--nothing like reexamine a card. Not only was I rudely turned down but then I was insulted. I have shown his comments to other substantial collectors I know and they were stunned. Maybe spending close to $100,000 on grading fees does not make me their biggest customer but I was appalled.
2)The trial balloon that PSA sent out about half grades was a slap in the face to their longstanding customers. Only because it was leaked that they were asking dealers about it, did they admit it. If it was not for the nearly unanimous outcry on the message boards it almost certainly would have happened. I think the president of PSA knew this(how could he have not) but was pressured by management of Collectors Universe to do this
3)I am losing a little confidence in Psa 's grading. Certain vintage cards I see in holders sold by certain dealers look suspicious to me. All I am suggesting is that certain dealers will continue to submit high-end trimmed cards until they grade.
4)The pricing of vintage sportscards in SMR is rapidly becoming irrelevant. The amazing thing is when this is pointed out to the president he defends it and says e-mail suggested changes. He actually wants the collectors to do his price guide. When I point out that he should take the responsibility for putting out a publication with accurate prices he gets angry and defensive. It is obvious he is paying no attention to ebay or even major auctions.
5)Making membership manmdatory and charging you before you can submit cards is not a good business decision.
6)There are not many individuals withy a broad knowledge of vintage cards of PSA's Message Boards. To many, vintage means 1970 Kellogg. There are collectors with detailed knowledge about a specific set in the 1960s or 1970s and there a couple of pretty witty guys but it is not very informative if your interest ins vintage cards. With Greg banned and Mike Schmidt off to business school, it has continued to deteriorate.
7)I have no intention at this time of converting my collection to SGC or GAI--too costly and it is not clear at this point how all this will play out. However, I am very worried about PSA and I know I am not the only one.

Davalillo

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#211970 - 09/11/03 05:56 AM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: Davalillo1]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

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Davalillo,

Welcome to these boards. I've read many of your posts and seen your
sets on the Psa Registry. It is an awesome collection of high end
cards. Sorry to hear things have gone bad with Psa and you.

While I have limited knowledge of many
pre-war/vintage issues, there are a few here that can help (botn + Mw1
for example). And although this board is not as active as the Psa
board, it still provides for a good source of information and access
to a number of cards, facts, and latest hobby news.

Good Luck and Happy Collecting!

aconte
_________________________

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#211971 - 09/11/03 07:58 AM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: aconte]
DaBoys
Learning the Ropes


Registered: 08/10/03
Posts: 10

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Interesting..............................
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#211972 - 09/11/03 09:03 AM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: DaBoys]
grilloj39
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 215
Loc: San Antonio, TX

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Dav...welcome to the boards. I wouldn't get too hung up on the term "vintage" when referring to a 1970 Kellogg's issue. It's just a issue of semantics IMO. A 1970s Kellogg's is vintage when compared to a 2003 Upper Deck card, but at the same time, it is nowhere near a vintage when compared to a pre-war or tobacco cards. Yes, your're right, the pre-war and tobacco are the true "vintage" cards, but sometimes I am guilty (catch myself saying) vintage when referring to my 60s or 70s hockey collection.

I fully understand your point of view with PSA. After the amount of business you have given them, I would expect a few perks/courtesies myself (just as long as it has nothing to do with Grading integrity that would be unethical).

I was a former PSA customer who switched to GAI...partly due to the membership requirement. I always used the e-bay submission form. But the main reason was that I am a real stickler on centering and I feel GAI is the most stringent on this issue, so they work good for me. Honestly, cost was another factor as well. I am also pleased with SGC's grading consistency and friendliness, I just feel they are a little too lenient on the centering.

I any case I hope to hear more from you soon.

Sincerely,
John
_________________________
Always looking for GAI,SGC,PSA vintage Hockey and Boxing.

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#211973 - 09/11/03 09:28 AM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: grilloj39]
remo
Collector


Registered: 08/29/02
Posts: 92
Loc: washington state

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Davalillo, welcome to the board i have read many of your posts on psa board very insightful and hope that you post here often welcome aboard!!!!!
_________________________
HERE FOR THE DURATION

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#211974 - 09/11/03 10:08 AM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: remo]
njdolphins
The Collectinator


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 333
Loc: Trimmed, Pressed, Power Erased

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Dav

Welcome to the SGC boards. Sad to hear about the treatment you have received given the level of support you showed the PSA organization. I've had nothing but good things to say about SGC services levels. They try their hardest to meet ESTIMATED dates for card shipments and are not at all unwilling to provide little extras that are within their power.

Good luck with the continuence of your collection!

Regards

Ron
_________________________

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#211975 - 09/11/03 10:13 AM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: remo]
buttermarc
Collector


Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 79
Loc: NYC

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Davalillo:

I am at least heartened that your post indicates that you still love the hobby -- and that you have a problem with only one particular aspect of it. PSA seems to have recently found itself in the position that it was a few years ago -- whereby there are more hard questions than answers, and customer service is largely lacking. I think that Charlie's departure from PSA, from a purely customer service standpoint, truly hurt PSA, as there was insufficient talent to step into his role.

I still want to talk with you at greater length at some point to understand what exactly has happened in your situation. In an industry that has so many dedicated hobbyists behind it (many of whom spend substantial sums of money without looking for an ROI), I think PSA has alienated quite a few people lately. Unfrotunately, with what would seem like a natural opportunity for a competitor to stand up, few have stepped up to fill PSA's role. GAI has been in the hobby now for nearly two years I believe. They have largely failed to amass (m)any significant collecting support, and their sole strengths at this point seem to be a) the pack grading and b) old relationships with Baker and Rocchi.

I have seen numerous consistency issues with all the major grading companies, PSA included. As a collector, it places many additional constraints upon me to actually buy a card anymore. I do not trust raw cards unless I can touch, feel, measure and smell them. And, unfortunately, I cannot trust many graded cards anymore solely on the basis of their grade. Not only is there a decided lack of consistency between grading companies, but there often seems to be significant grading inconsistency within grading companies on similar cards graded at similar times.

My best wishes,
ButterMarc (aka mikeschmidt)
_________________________
"It is not the critic who counts..."

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#211976 - 09/11/03 11:35 AM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: Davalillo1]
deadlyembrace
The Venus Card Trap


Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 596
Loc: Austin, TX

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Welcome to the SGC boards!!



Quote:

I believe I am the largest owner of psa-graded cards in the country(colse to 20,000) and am attempting to build over 100 vintage pre-war and post-war sets in baseball, football, basketball and hockey in psa 8 or better




Management of 20K cards and 100 sets sounds like a full time job to me. Hat's off.

Are all your cards PSA-graded?

What set/sport do you think will be your first to be SGC-graded?

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#211977 - 09/11/03 11:57 AM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: buttermarc]
grilloj39
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 215
Loc: San Antonio, TX

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buttermarc...as a customer of GAI, I do not know what more I can ask of them. I am not a big time dealer, just a collector. I pay the lowest prices available, simple submission forms, friendly staff, great communications on the status of my invoices, and most of all accurate grading in my opinion. many posts (especially on the other board) seem to imply GAI is just for the big time dealer. what relationships Mike and Steve have with dealers is none of my concern. I care about my relationship with them and my cards being graded and of course the pay I pay.
_________________________
Always looking for GAI,SGC,PSA vintage Hockey and Boxing.

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#211978 - 09/11/03 12:36 PM BOTN = MyBigToe [Re: Davalillo1]
gumball
Hobbyist


Registered: 05/05/03
Posts: 40

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Quote:

With Greg banned




Zarduh51 told me BOTN is now posting anonymously as MyBigToe on the PSA message board.

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#211979 - 09/11/03 06:39 PM Welcome [Re: gumball]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

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Davalillo -

Welcome to the boards. Sorry to hear of your recent experiences with PSA. I am no stranger to the frustration that you feel and have many of the same criticisms and concerns. While my investment in PSA graded cards is almost non-existent in contrast to yours, that does not in any way diminish my fears. I earn my livelihood in a market in which PSA dominates and often find myself questioning their motives and practices. I would hope that one day that will change or that PSA will re-evaluate their business model.

It will be great to have your input as a hobby veteran.

Gumball-

Who is Zarduh51?

Thanks,
Greg


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#211980 - 09/14/03 11:16 AM Re: Welcome [Re: botn]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

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Davalillo --

Great to see you here. Pretty damning post. I don't think there is anything to be added conmmentary-wise. I hope to "see" here often.

ps Try building a set in SGC.
_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#211981 - 09/14/03 02:54 PM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: Davalillo1]
HonusWagner
Hobbyist


Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 69
Loc: Toronto, Ontario

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Good to have you here, Davalillo.


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#211982 - 09/14/03 04:21 PM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: HonusWagner]
Davalillo1
Collector is an understatement.


Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 119

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Thank you all for the warm welcome. My post caused quite a stir on the psa set registry message boards. I tend to be very direct in my comments and that tends to rub many the wrong way. Regardless, I love the hobby, am totally committed to trying to complete my numerous sets and hope to have constructive things to add to the dialogue here from time to time.
If you read the thread on psa, aside from the personal attacks which I could care less about, I think that the serious people on the board agree with most of what I say. Where I drew the most criticism is saying there were not many there who had a broad knowledge of vintage cards(I define vintage as 1959 and earlier with 1960s issues being semi-vintage). I still believe this. As I pointed out there are several people on those boards with detailied specific knowledge about particular sets in the 1960 and 1970s. There are also several who like to joke around and several who like to argue. There are also people who ask many questions and several helpful people who try to answer them. However I am serious about the hobby. I love it but as I said I will call a spade a spade and my focus is completing my sets in psa 8 or better.

Davalillo

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#211983 - 09/14/03 06:14 PM Re: Disenchantment with PSA *DELETED* [Re: Davalillo1]
MW1
veteran


Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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Post deleted by dena
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#211984 - 09/14/03 06:24 PM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: MW1]
MW1
veteran


Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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Davalillo,

One more thing....regarding an allegation made by Vargha on the CU forum. I am not "waitillitstartstosmell" and the rude comments he made in no way reflect my thoughts or opinions of you.

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#211985 - 09/15/03 08:30 AM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: Davalillo1]
njdolphins
The Collectinator


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 333
Loc: Trimmed, Pressed, Power Erased

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Davalillo

Welcome to the boards. I echo MW's comments that you should try out the product and judge the results for yourself.

Regards

Ron
_________________________

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#211986 - 09/16/03 01:21 AM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: MW1]
MW1
veteran


Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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Davalillo,

I have reason to believe that "waitillitstartstosmell" -- the guy who constantly insults you on the CU forum -- is Alan Cowart.

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#211987 - 09/16/03 09:07 PM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: MW1]
Davalillo1
Collector is an understatement.


Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 119

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MW!,

Thanks for the info and I appreciate your earlier comments. Alan is one of those guys who apparently sees himself as an expert in vintage cards and is offended when one points out that there is no evidence that he is.
I really don't know about this waittilitstartstosmell person but all of a sudden he comes on and does nothing but attack me. All I remembered was that he and King Kellogg--another real lowlife--wanted to go to the national together and hold hands while they went to the show.

Regardless, people like those two--you have to realize that they are just jerks and ignore them.

Davalillo


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#211988 - 09/17/03 12:10 AM Re: Disenchantment with PSA *DELETED* [Re: Davalillo1]
MW1
veteran


Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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Post deleted by dena
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#211989 - 09/17/03 11:13 AM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: MW1]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

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I agree with FB and Basilone that we should not stir the pot in replying
to these comments made by Davalillo. It really should be between
King Kellogg and Davalillo.


Guys like Kobe should mind their own business. Starting new threads
on other boards can't be helpful. Rather childish move by Kobe.



aconte
_________________________

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#211990 - 09/17/03 12:08 PM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: aconte]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

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aconte, will you please stop making sense?

There are a couple of "gentlemen" who take great pleasure in cutting comments from this board and pasting them elsewhere. I guess it takes a genius to accomplish such complex tasks and they are really showing us all how smart they are. I know that it really impresses me.

On Davalillo1's posts over here -- there is nothing in them that he didn't already post on the CU board. I do not know his motivation for posting here since he states that he has no interest in moving from PSA. If I had a beef with someone "over there", I'd post it there. Why rip a PSA collector on the SGC board?

And, by the way, I enjoy the k-klub -- they are a funny bunch -- and have even invested in a few k kards! Yes, k-kards look just fine in an SGC holder.

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#211991 - 09/17/03 12:15 PM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: aconte]
MW1
veteran


Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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srs1a,

I think you're right. I also find it unusual that so many of the attacks across the street are from anonymous user names.

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#211992 - 09/17/03 12:42 PM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: MW1]
Ken_Uston
Learning the Ropes


Registered: 09/02/03
Posts: 10

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MW,

Could you please explain the basis for your statement "I represent the greatest challenge to the PSA stronghold." That's a pretty bold contention. I understand that you are an eloquent and tireless supporter of SGC grading, but it seems that there are several larger challenges to the PSA stronghold than one dealer: Collectors Universe's financial picture, GAI, Beckett, raw card collectors, macro-economic factors -- even SGC.


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#211993 - 09/17/03 01:55 PM Re: Disenchantment with PSA *DELETED* [Re: Ken_Uston]
MW1
veteran


Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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Post deleted by dena
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#211994 - 09/17/03 02:45 PM Re: Disenchantment with PSA *DELETED* [Re: MW1]
MW1
veteran


Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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Post deleted by dena
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#211995 - 09/17/03 03:18 PM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: MW1]
wolverine
Hobbyist


Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 63

Offline
Wow, this is disconcerting. What do people think about BGS? I think I blew my money buying a BGS 9.5 card because I heard they were so hard and strict and then I see so many more the same card at BGS 9.5 sold by the same seller.
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#211996 - 09/18/03 08:10 AM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: wolverine]
Basilone
If I just sell the car, I can up my bid...


Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 166

Offline
Quote:

Personally, I don't trust a company that grades an altered card and then cons a successful businessman into spending $1.26 million for it.




That is a pretty strong statement......

Maybe you could answer these yes or no questions....

Is it your personal opinion that you do not trust PSA?

Is it your personal opinion that you feel the card in question is altered?

Is it a proven fact beyond a resonable doubt that the card in question is altered?


John



Edited by Basilone (09/18/03 08:12 AM)

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#211997 - 09/18/03 09:50 AM Re: Disenchantment with PSA *DELETED* [Re: Basilone]
MW1
veteran


Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

Offline
Post deleted by dena
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#211998 - 09/18/03 10:09 AM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: MW1]
nolemmings
Hobbyist


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 36

Offline
MW, please explain how PSA "conned" Siegle into spending $1.2 M for the card. What was the motivation--would they not have received essentially the same grading fee whether or not they gave it the thumbs up?

I suppose there's the argument that they get free advertising by having the card reside in their slab, but Mr. Siegel was and is free to have it reholdered in another company's slab if he wants, which would terminate the PSA advertising, wouldn't it? Speaking of another company, is it your position or belief that SGC would reject the Wagner card if presented to them for grading?

BTW, I am reserving judgment on whether the card was cut from a sheet, as I believe there is evidence to that effect, although the strength and quality of that evidence is not unassailable. I just have not been convinced that there was any malice or recklessness on PSA's part in grading the card, and would like more information or opinion on the subject, if you please.

_________________________
So many cards, so little time.

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#211999 - 09/18/03 12:25 PM Re: Disenchantment with PSA *DELETED* [Re: nolemmings]
MW1
veteran


Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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Post deleted by dena
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#212000 - 09/18/03 10:48 PM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: MW1]
tegelaar
Hobbyist


Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 50
Loc: Boston

Offline
Here is a link,...

T206 Wagner Oversized?



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#212001 - 09/19/03 05:52 AM Re: Disenchantment with PSA [Re: tegelaar]
grilloj39
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 215
Loc: San Antonio, TX

Offline
thanks for the link...one thing I am not too familiar with are the cards in question...were the T206s commonly oversized (and/or different sizes?). If so, that might fuel the fire to this rumor. In any case, a grader would be able to easily spot a recently trimmed card on a over 90 year old card.

Gretzky and McNall kept the card so that should tell you something about this rumor. What deals were or weren't made is all speculation.

_________________________
Always looking for GAI,SGC,PSA vintage Hockey and Boxing.

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