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#220829 - 09/24/03 06:37 AM Complete sets?
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

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All,

There is an interesting thread on Network54 on "what makes a set complete". As you'd expect, the discussion centers primarily around pre-war issues. What do you all think?

SGC seems to have adopted the "master set" concept in the registry -- that is, they require all (actually not all...more to follow) of the variation cards as well as some insert cards to complete the set. The variations include things like the white letter cards in '69, trade statement / no trade statement in '59, white/yellow letter variations in '68, etc, etc, etc.

On not all of the variations cards...for the '68 set they list 3 variations (49, 68, and 400 with both white and yellow team names). Clearly, these are the most obvious variations, but there are quite a few more. In one of the leader cards, Lonborg is mis-spelled Lonberg...but corrected later in the print run...several of the CL's have variations in both content and image...etc, etc, etc. You might argue that some of these are actually errors and not variations, but for at least one card it is clearly a variation (the image on #356--Holtzman CL gets airbrushed to erase some tee-pee's in the background! Now, why would they ever do this is a very interesting question -- I wish I had images of both cards to show them, but I don't.) My guess is that other sets have similar curiosities, but I have no knowledge of them.

My personal opinion is that a set is complete when you have one of each of the cards in the set -- that is one #1, one #2.....to one of the last card. -- and as such, variation cards aren't required to complete a set. Comments?




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#220830 - 09/24/03 07:47 AM Re: Complete sets? [Re: srs1a]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

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Scott,

I sort of agree. I think the spelling errors should not be included.

I really think that the standard errors or additions should be included
in a master set. For example, I think the white-letter cards for 69
should be part of the complete set.

On the issue I'm familar with - the red man's, the only real variation
that I would consider part of the standard set are the 1954. There
were three players that were traded and cards were printed with their
new team. Sgc includes them as part of the set. Psa does not. I think
this set is complete at 54 cards. There was also two number 19's for
the National League. What I would not consider needed for the complete
set are cards with different expiration dates on the back of the card.
The cards had expiration dates for sending in the tabs to receive
the baseball cap. I don't think this should come into play when working
on the red man sets.

aconte
_________________________

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#220831 - 09/24/03 06:31 PM Re: Complete sets? [Re: srs1a]
wrigleyfield
Collector is an understatement.


Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 163

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The 1971 baseball set includes nine "variation" cards that mostly include different helment colors on checklist cards and printing errors (black blobs in the picture) on two cards. The SGC set registry does not include any of these "variations" and the PSA set registry includes only a few of the nine. I think you can make a case either way, but I come down on the side of having all the variations for a set to be complete.
_________________________
WrigleyField

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#220832 - 09/24/03 09:41 PM Re: Complete meals? [Re: srs1a]
Phatty
There's a fine line between clever and stupid - Spinal Tap


Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 396
Loc: is phatty back?

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phatty can really relate to this topic. quite often, during dinner or any of phatty's 12 square meals, phatty is faced with a bit of a problem. should phatty be working towards eating a "complete" meal or a "master" meal? sure, that porkchop on phatty's dinner plate may be enough to satisfy most pedestrian eaters, but doesn't it have a few sister and brother porkchops still living in phatty's refrigerator? phatty often worries about those tricky usda nutritional requirements and geometrically perplexing food triangles. and sometimes phatty wonders if his culinary acumen is lacking. phatty is strongly considering adopting a "master" meal plan.
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#220833 - 09/25/03 05:17 AM Re: Complete meals? [Re: Phatty]
grilloj39
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 215
Loc: San Antonio, TX

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Phatty...I guess your're like the "Rock" (not built like the Rock) ....you speak in the third person. Anyway, I am on the side of a complete #'d set is a complete set. When you start getting into variations, error cards, etc, well then a lot of subjectivity is injected into the process. It's more simple speaking in terms of "#'d sets" IMO.
_________________________
Always looking for GAI,SGC,PSA vintage Hockey and Boxing.

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#220834 - 09/25/03 08:25 AM Re: Complete sets? [Re: srs1a]
deadlyembrace
The Venus Card Trap


Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 596
Loc: Austin, TX

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Hey Scott --

Outstanding question ... and one that's not easily answered.

I tend to think of the yellow/white letter variations (1969 Topps baseball and others), green tint (1962 Topps baseball), airbrushing logos from the same player pose, missing/corrected spellings, etc as print flaws ... or error cards ... and not true variations.

To me, a variation is two different poses for the same player in the same set. For example, to complete a 1962 Topps set (IMHO), you would need to acquire 3 cards numbered 139: Babe Hits 60 (Ruth Special), Hal Reniff (Portrait pose) and Hal Reniff (Pitching pose). BUT, whether the three cards were the "green tint" or normal print variety ... wouldn't matter.

Similarly, in the 1969 Topps (baseball) set, there are two poses for card #151 Clay Dalrymple. In one, he is squatting in the catcher's pose and wearing a Phillies uniform. In the other, he is presented in a "head shot", capless, wearing an indistinguishable uniform, and listed as an Oriole. In my mind, this is a true variation.

However, another card in the 1969 Topps checklist commonly thought of as having a variation is #99, the Graig Nettles rookie card. One "version" contains an errant loop around the team name circle in the upper left-hand corner, the other does not. To me, this is a print flaw that was subsequently corrected. I wouldn't go out of my way to look for both cards, but if they came my way, I would probably try to acquire both.

So, even though I don't consider the Nettles variations to be "true" variations, I would probably feature both in my collection if given the opportunity.

Go figure.

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#220835 - 09/25/03 03:14 PM Re: Complete sets? [Re: deadlyembrace]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

Offline
DE,

I think your position makes alot of sense and is tough to argue with. I've been trying to figure out what to do about the 3 silly variations in '68. 2 of them are relatively easy to find in off-grade...but rarely seen in nm and better. I don't think that I've actually ever seen the last one (#400)...except on 707's website and at something like $400 for a PSA-3. Not something that I'm really crazy about chasing. Perhaps there is one deep in the Madison archives.

I was thinking about your sets when I asked this questions -- with the green tints in '62 + and the white letters in '69...you've hit the jackpot with potential variations!

Also, nice to see the Schwenke collections back up on the registry

Scott


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#220836 - 09/26/03 06:40 AM Re: Complete sets? [Re: srs1a]
deadlyembrace
The Venus Card Trap


Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 596
Loc: Austin, TX

Offline
Scott --

I guess the bottom line is that there are probably as many definitions of what constitutes a "complete set" as there are set builders. And those individual definitions are probably shaped and impacted by such things as: motivation, collecting patience, collecting goals, budget, etc. ... qualities about the individual that have nothing to do with the card set.

For me, patience has been the hardest lesson learned, but I've finally leaned it and adapted my collecting activities accordingly. And that is why I had my sets re-published.



Again, great question.



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