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#223547 - 09/27/03 07:43 AM Two questions on SGC/SBC graded cards
Davalillo1
Collector is an understatement.


Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 119

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1)I have older SGC-graded cards graded when Joe Merkle was running sgc(not sure if that is his name). If I am looking to sell them as SGC cards is it worth getting them regraded or was the grading then similar to the grading now?
2)I also have SBC cards--what is the experience in getting these crossed over by SGC?

Many thanks in advance,

Davalillo

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#223548 - 09/27/03 08:28 AM Re: Two questions on SGC/SBC graded cards [Re: Davalillo1]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

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A Recent Discussion of Your First Question

Edited by vayank (09/27/03 08:31 AM)
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---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#223549 - 09/27/03 08:35 AM Re: Two questions on SGC/SBC graded cards [Re: Davalillo1]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

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Davalillo1,

There were some comments made on a thread called "1963 Fleer Milestones"
that discussed some of the issues with the old holders.

Here is a comment I made to answer I think Marc Shoenen(sp?):

Anyone out there know the odds of getting an old-style SGC holder to cross back into a current SGC holder with the split grade?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Anyhow, to answer your original question. Based on my experience
and my small sample size I would estimate the odds to be 10-20%
that it could cross. Of course a scan would not hurt.

Anyhow:

I would think anything graded by Merkel is iffy. Many might cross
but I have not had good luck on my limited experience. I do think cards
in the older style holders do sell for less than the split grade holders.

I am not familiar with the SBC holders. But I don't think I have to be.
My guess is that if it was graded in the early days by the old regime
that it may not cross. You may want to contact Sean at SGC to
consider your options. I'm sure he will work with you as best he can

So to answer your questions:

1) Yes it is worth getting them reholdered if they can cross close to
the same grade depending on the card. The grading is not the same
now as it was back then. Merckel should of just worn a blindfold in
most cases. He stunk.

2) Don't know. I do not think it is good.

aconte


Edited by aconte (09/27/03 08:37 AM)
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#223550 - 09/27/03 09:41 AM Re: Two questions on SGC/SBC graded cards [Re: Davalillo1]
deadlyembrace
The Venus Card Trap


Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 596
Loc: Austin, TX

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Davalillo1 --

I don't have experience with SBC-to-SGC "cross overs", but I do own numerous "old label" SGC cards.

There is a general perception that "old label" cards are less desireable than "new label" SGC cards (... and there was an interim label, as well ...) because the the grading standards and consistency improved. If you buy into that argument, then you might expect a premium for a "new label" card that receives an identical SGC grade. That is, if the card was SGC 92 with its "old label" and SGC 92 with its "new label" ... so goes the conventional wisdom ... it has greater value. The fallacy is that you're still dealing with the same card.

If the grading services provided really did improve from the old incarnation of SGC to the present one, then you run the risk of getting a lower grade by having "old label" regraded. That suggests that the services provided by the "old SGC" were consistently suspect. The cards in my personal collection are evidence to the contrary. And personally, I think the whole "old label" vs. "new label" debate is a load of horsehockey bordering on gimmickery.

I've heard from a number of people, whose opinions I respect, describing the actions (antics??) of Joe Merkle in less than favorable terms. OK. So the incident involving the Doyle Nat'l card, a very loud dealer and a high profile buyer was the card grading industry's equivalent of "Merkle's Boner" ... and perhaps there are other, equally disturbing incidents. To broadbrush ALL cards graded during Merkle's tenure is crazy. If a card deserves and receives a 92 whether in an "old" or "new" labeled SGC holder, what value has been added by the regrade?

From a collector's prespective, I would say "None". From the perspective of someone who is trying to maximize profit, I don't know whether premiums truly ARE paid based on label (... though, I doubt it). And I don't know if anyone can present evidence either way (... though, I doubt that too).

My apologies for rambling, but this IS a topic that elevates my blood pressure faster than high octane java.



Just out of curiosity, what cards do you have available and in what grades? Maybe we can do some business ...

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#223551 - 09/27/03 11:44 AM Re: Two questions on SGC/SBC graded cards [Re: deadlyembrace]
Davalillo1
Collector is an understatement.


Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 119

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Deadly Embrace,

Just sold sgc84 55T Clemente and sgc 92 58T Ted Williams

Have these cards in old sgc holders

T206--Evers portrait(88),Cobb bat on(84),Jennings portrait(70),McGraw portrait(60),Doolin(60),Schmidt portrait(86),,Gray(86)
55T-Jackie Robinson sgc 92, 55Topps Doubleheaders Aaron/Herbert 86 and Robinson/Hoak 96.

I sbc have 1973 Schmidt RC in sbc96.

Davalillo

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#223552 - 09/27/03 02:20 PM Re: Two questions on SGC/SBC graded cards [Re: Davalillo1]
jackstraw
Talkative?


Registered: 02/23/03
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i wish they would reuse the sbc labels. oops i forgot i promised not to bring it up again
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#223553 - 09/27/03 08:29 PM Re: Two questions on SGC/SBC graded cards [Re: deadlyembrace]
MW1
veteran


Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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DE makes some excellent points. All too often as collectors, we get all hyped up on the idea that we should be buying numbers or labels (kind of like buying vowels) and not buying merchandise based on condition.

Granted, I've seen some overgraded cards in the old SGC holders. But I've ALSO seen overgraded cards in both vintage and modern PSA holders, BGS and BVG holders, SCD holders, GAI holders, etc. No grader is perfect 100% of the time. That's just the way things are in this business. But the probability of getting an overgraded or altered card in ANY SGC holder is many times less than it is when buying a raw card or buying a card from less trustworthy grading sources.

Finally, it is interesting to note that when I was still a PSA-Authorized dealer, I would routinely purchase cards in the old style SGC holders, crack them out and then resubmit them to PSA for higher grades. I think that SGC has always been tighter on corners, so this was never a difficult task. I also did quite well on SBC graded cards.

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#223554 - 09/28/03 07:10 AM Re: Two questions on SGC/SBC graded cards [Re: MW1]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

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DE + MW1,

I wish I could say I have confidence in the product in the old style holders.
I do not. Not just from what I've seen from my personal experience but
also what I've seen at shows in dealer cases. I just see cards that would not
make the same grade today.

DE,

I've looked at some of your cards. I can say yours may be the exception
not the rule. From looking at the scans the cards look pretty good.
I look forward to hearing how you make out on the crossing of the
few you send it. Good luck. Regardless, your collection is exceptional.

aconte
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#223555 - 09/28/03 06:44 PM Re: Two questions on SGC/SBC graded cards [Re: Davalillo1]
buttermarc
Collector


Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 79
Loc: NYC

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Jim:

I have always wondered exactly what your 1953 Reese SBC 98 looked like. What ever became of that? I know that you had taken it to a few Fort shows looking to have it in a newer hold (even if only a MINT holder....)

I would potentially be very interested in your Schmidt rookie card. I would want to see it before making any kind of deal -- but perhaps I have a few extra cards to help one of your sets efforts that could potentially work for a trade sometime in the next few months.

Cheers-
Marc
_________________________
"It is not the critic who counts..."

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#223556 - 09/28/03 06:53 PM Re: Two questions on SGC/SBC graded cards [Re: aconte]
njdolphins
The Collectinator


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 333
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My 2 cents

I've been re-examining all of my old style holder cards and I would personally move almost all of them down by grade. Not to say that that cards are garbage but anytime there is a shift in the paradigm (as with the change in SGC management) values will change.

Ron
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