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#233004 - 10/09/03 12:29 PM OK, now I've seen everything
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
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That highly regarded eBAY seller -- libertyforall, appears to have teamed up with PRO and they are now grading his magazine cut-outs. I wonder if he is behind on his electric bill and AAA grading is no longer able to operate out of his basement.

As they say, birds of a feather...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2758414615&category=16271

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#233005 - 10/13/03 09:53 PM Re: OK, now I've seen everything [Re: srs1a]
MW1
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Registered: 07/30/02
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You know what? I question whether the 1954 Topps paper inserts that libertyforall is cutting up are even from the original SI #1 issues. Instead, based on the sheer number that he has had for sale in the past year, I think there's a distinct possibility that these scraps of paper (his trademark) are from the REPRINTS of SI's #1 magazine

Check it out. They can be purchased in large quantities for $149.95 each on this website (see second to last item in list).

Or, you can generally find them on eBay for approximately the same price.

Assuming one already has a pair of scissors, a tidy profit is not unrealistic. Libertyforall generally sells the set of cutouts as singles and grosses between $500 and $1000 per cut up issue.

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#233006 - 10/15/03 08:44 AM Re: OK, now I've seen everything [Re: MW1]
bhl2359
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Registered: 10/14/03
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Quote:

You know what? I question whether the 1954 Topps paper inserts that libertyforall is cutting up are even from the original SI #1 issues. Instead, based on the sheer number that he has had for sale in the past year, I think there's a distinct possibility that these scraps of paper (his trademark) are from the REPRINTS of SI's #1 magazine

Check it out. They can be purchased in large quantities for $149.95 each on this website (see second to last item in list).




I'm not sure if you actually read the link for the Sports Illustrated #1 , but it clearly states that they are authentic copies from the first press run in 1954.

Please clarify: are you accusing SI of selling reprints as authentic?

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#233007 - 10/15/03 04:20 PM Re: OK, now I've seen everything [Re: bhl2359]
MW1
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No, you are mistaken. It does not say "first" press run. Here's the exact language that is used in the advertisement:

"An actual August 16, 1954, press copy of the very first edition of Sports Illustrated."

A little over a decade ago, I was contacted by a wholesaler and offered large quantities of this same RE-ISSUED SI #1 for approximately $99 each.

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#233008 - 10/15/03 06:47 PM Re: OK, now I've seen everything [Re: MW1]
bhl2359
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You're kidding, right? In that context, they obviously mean "copy" to mean "One specimen or example of a printed text or picture: an autographed copy of a novel."

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=copy

I have owned one of these magazines, which was purchased directly from SI. They come with a Certificate of Authenticity and the COA affirms that they are from the first press run in 1954. If they were selling them as copies, "An imitation or reproduction of an original; a duplicate: a copy of a painting; made two copies of the letter.", they would label them as reproductions. But they aren't.


Edited by bhl2359 (10/15/03 09:50 PM)

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#233009 - 10/15/03 09:05 PM Re: OK, now I've seen everything [Re: bhl2359]
MW1
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Assuming you do not have one of the reprinted SI #1 Gift Issues, my understanding is as follows:

All of the original SI #1 print run were sold within a short period of time following the magazine's original release date (most sources agree that 90 percent of the issue were sold on the first day of sale). Some time later, there was another group of magazines that were printed but never distributed in the same manner as the first (in a white envelope). Instead, they were stored in a warehouse. In the late 1980s, these magazines were sold in large quantities to dealers and collectors across the country.

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#233010 - 10/15/03 09:49 PM Re: OK, now I've seen everything [Re: MW1]
bhl2359
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I don't mean to be argumentative, but inthe second link you provided, the magazine is clearly labeled a reprint, and only costs $32.95, including a hardcover book and a 26 issue paid subscription to SI. This is clearly different than the magazine in the first link you provided, which costs $149.95 and is described as "An actual August 16, 1954, press copy of the very first edition of Sports Illustrated". What that means to me is that these were magazines printed in 1954. Why SI still has them over 50 years later, I don't know. But I do know that it is highly unlikely that a company like SI is going to perpetrate an ongoing fraud without getting caught.
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#233011 - 10/15/03 10:22 PM Re: OK, now I've seen everything [Re: bhl2359]
MW1
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First, I have no idea which edition you own. I merely suggested it was either one or the other. Second, I never wrote that Sports Illustrated was perpetuating a fraud. I'm simply providing some historical background so that you better understand that the thousands of Gem Mint Sports Illustrated #1s that are finding their way into the hobby are NOT the same magazines that were sold back in 1954. I believe that they were printed later and were NOT part of the first press run.
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#233012 - 10/15/03 10:24 PM Re: OK, now I've seen everything [Re: bhl2359]
MW1
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Quote:

They come with a Certificate of Authenticity and the COA affirms that they are from the first press run in 1954.



Question -- can you post an image of your COA to confirm this?

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#233013 - 10/16/03 03:53 AM Re: OK, now I've seen everything [Re: MW1]
the1nderer
Learning the Ropes


Registered: 10/03/03
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Quote:

I believe that they were printed later and were NOT part of the first press run.




What is "later"? If we assume the original press run was within the month or so preceeding August 14, 1954 - do you believe these were printed sometime later that year as a second print run? Or do you think SI ran the presses at a much later date when these became collectible? If the former, I see no issue for concern - magazines have second (and third, etc.) print runs all the time, and it's not like books where the difference between first and second editions can be significant in value. If the latter, I would like to see evidence that SI is marketing what you feel are later year reproductions as originals.

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#233014 - 10/16/03 05:52 AM Re: OK, now I've seen everything [Re: the1nderer]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
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bhl2359,

The most important thing to get out of this thread is that you should
be careful and know what your buying when you buy from 'libertyforall.'
MW1 is just giving another possible reason to be careful. Personally,
I could care less what edition this 54 junk is from. It is all cr-ap
to me. Save your money.

aconte
_________________________

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#233015 - 10/16/03 11:53 AM Re: OK, now I've seen everything [Re: MW1]
bhl2359
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Registered: 10/14/03
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Quote:

Quote:

They come with a Certificate of Authenticity and the COA affirms that they are from the first press run in 1954.



Question -- can you post an image of your COA to confirm this?





http://i2.ebayimg.com/02/i/00/3a/ae/42_3.JPG

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#233016 - 10/16/03 11:56 AM Re: OK, now I've seen everything [Re: aconte]
bhl2359
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Registered: 10/14/03
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Quote:

bhl2359,

The most important thing to get out of this thread is that you should
be careful and know what your buying when you buy from 'libertyforall.'
aconte




I understand that. I have seen their [!@#%^&^] on eBay for a long time.

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#233017 - 10/16/03 11:58 AM Re: OK, now I've seen everything [Re: bhl2359]
bhl2359
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Registered: 10/14/03
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Quote:

bhl2359,

I understand that. I have seen their [!@#%^&^] on eBay for a long time.




They censor the word c-r-a-p here? Seems a bit extreme.

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#233018 - 10/16/03 02:55 PM Re: OK, now I've seen everything [Re: bhl2359]
MW1
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Quote:

They come with a Certificate of Authenticity and the COA affirms that they are from the first press run in 1954.




The certificate reads "1954 Press-Run First Issue."

I see a clear discrepancy between your original statement and what the COA says. To me, there's a substantial difference (both in terminology and value) between a first press run and a later press run after the fact that was never distributed through normal channels and stored in a warehouse for nearly 40 years.

In the world of baseball cards, a good parallel would be the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread issue where in the 1980s a large quantity of half the cards in the set was uncovered in New York. Today, those cards are valued at substantially lower levels than the originals, despite that fact that both series of cards may have been printed at approximately the same time.

As I dealer, I would gladly pay at least $250 for a FIRST press run SI #1 with the original mailer. I would not, however, pay anywhere close to that for any one of 600,000 SI #1s that were printed at a later date and stored in a warehouse. Yes, the difference to some may be academic but in the world of periodicals, print runs and methods of distribution are essential keys to the proper assessment of value.

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#233019 - 10/16/03 02:56 PM Re: OK, now I've seen everything [Re: bhl2359]
MW1
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Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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Quote:

They censor the word c-r-a-p here? Seems a bit extreme.



Agreed.

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#233020 - 10/18/03 03:34 PM Re: OK, now I've seen everything [Re: MW1]
bowdowntome
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Registered: 10/18/03
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Hello, I'm new to this form.

Having said that, I see no better way to start off than try and be argumentative (just kidding!).

While I don't pretend to know anything about SI's, other than what I personally collect, I do know that when magazines in general are first started up it is very common to overproduce the first issue, because there is no way to know beforehand how many are going to be needed. The second issue, on the other hand, is usually printed in greatly smaller numbers because they then have a sense of how many to print.
Second issues are generally harder to find, however first issues are usually more popular.

I see it being very realistic that SI could have overproduced the first issue, sold X-amount of copies via newsstands and subscriptions, and warehoused the remainder. It happens all the time.

Had these remainders not surfaced I could see the first issue being a $500-$600 item, easily. The current price of the remainders at $175 or so, seems like a bargain, relatively speaking.

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