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#2420 - 08/05/02 02:59 AM Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader??
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

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Folks,

Are there any "off brand" grader whose slabs are worth taking a look for cross over to SGC? There has to be at least one making a go of it in terms of credible grading ...
_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#2421 - 08/05/02 05:32 AM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: vayank]
downgoesfrazier
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 222
Loc: Summer of '77

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Yank, BVG, PSA, GAI can all be considered realistic. But, remember, it's the CARD. If you trust your eyes, go for it. Virtually everyone on this board will have a different opinion based on different experiences. I've had SGC 96's that couldn't make PSA 9's and PSA 9's that couldn't make SGC 96's. I would be careful of the BGS/BVG stuff. For whatever reason there are a fair amount of trimmed cards in those holders. I've purchased 5 for cross-over and two were trimmed. I couldn't spot it through the holder because the sides (grain) are not viewable. They were purchased from different people which makes it even more perplexing. My experience with SGC is that they miss surface bubbles on the year that you specialize in...BE CAREFUL HERE! Those are PSA 5's! And, in the long run will be undesireable no matter what the holder. PSA's problem is that they are just woefully inconsistent. GAI has arguably the best grading team, but you'll have to investigate that yourself. Don't listen to me or anyone else on that as the experiences are too few and far between at this stage. I've heard about ethics problems to good 'ol boy networks, etc. These are usually as credible as a Highschool rumor, but worth being forwarned about nonetheless. Also, you need a physics degree to crack into the GAI holder. I would obviously stay away from PRO, WCG, etc. There's another thread in the forum about KSA...pretty solid cards for the money...I'm 2 for 2 crossing 8's to PSA! SCDA is a sleeper. Raw cards would cost you more and they're pretty solid. Watch for centering there, however. But as for corners and surface they are rather strict and cross over well. Finally, it's the CARD...learn how to grade a card and submit enough to SGC so you can get a feel, then make your move. The good thing about SGC is that, unlike PSA, they're fairly consistent. That allows you to get to know a "92 or better" when you see it. Obviously, I would NEVER advise purchasing on-line with cross-over hopes. Again, I only caution about BVG as you can't really tell the trimming in the holder. Hope this helps...I have some hard #'s I could PM you if interested...I've crossed over so often I should go by "Joe Cross-Over"
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#2422 - 08/06/02 02:22 PM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: vayank]
deadlyembrace
The Venus Card Trap


Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 596
Loc: Austin, TX

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I've submitted a grand total of 1 card to SGC for cross-over grading. A 1962 Topps #455 Luis Arroyo graded by CSA as a 10 crossed over to an SGC 98. This was several years ago ... before CSA came out with that electric blue background for their holders.

Generally, I stay away from the practice of trying to cross-over a card because of cost and risk. You have to pay a premium for the card in its current holder (as compared to an ungraded equivalent). At the time of my lone cross over experience, SGC was charging a "bust out" fee in addition to its normal grading fee. So, by the time SGC gets its first look at the raw card, you already have a substantial investment in the card ... especially if it's a PSA, BGS or GAI that you intend to cross over. That's the "cost" component of the equation.

The risk is that you never know whether you're going to get dinged a grade or half-grade from SGC. As 77s stated in one of his posts, you can't see the card's edges when it's in a holder. So, if you've incurred "mint" costs and submitted a MINT 9 card for cross-over grading with the expectation of receiving an SGC 96 ... only to receive an SGC 92 ... you're SOL.

Just my 2 or 3 cents ...

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#2423 - 08/25/02 12:54 PM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: vayank]
Lothar52
enthusiast


Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 240
Loc: Ohio, USA

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i dont know...seems like every company has some inconsistencies... i got a PSA 8 jerry rice that looks 10x worse then my 56 mantle PSA 7.... i got it on an auction from ebay and the picture did the card too much justice i guess.... just didnt see the damage i guess.... but point is psa shouldnt have given it an 8

I got a BSG 8.5 99 edgerrin James ultra that lookslike a truck ran over the edges... once again wasnt able to see on auction scan.

i got a SGC 98 shaun alexander Fleer Ultra where the front look perfect but onthe back the what should be orange corners like the surface color of the card show white ....obvious damage... this was NOT mistakable...andi obviously was not allowed to see a back scan of the card ....

Looks like i get dipped alot on auctions.. LOL..but this thread just shows u that all 3 of the big companies ive seen mistakes in grading...and therefore you NEVER KNOW WHAT YOUR GOING TO GET IN A CROSSOVER.... LORD HELP US....
_________________________
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I love CAKE....

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#2424 - 08/25/02 12:59 PM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: vayank]
Lothar52
enthusiast


Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 240
Loc: Ohio, USA

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should i contact SGC about that 98 that aint even a 96???

lothar52
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I love CAKE....

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#2425 - 08/25/02 01:14 PM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: vayank]
Lothar52
enthusiast


Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 240
Loc: Ohio, USA

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hey when i get a scanner will anyone look at some of my cards.. scans that is..imthinking of having some crossed over.

Lothar52
_________________________
--------------------
I love CAKE....

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#2426 - 08/25/02 03:25 PM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: Lothar52]
downgoesfrazier
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 222
Loc: Summer of '77

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You cannot gather enough information from a scanned image to establish crossover probability. You just mentioned that you didn't see the damage in the scans on eBay...see where I'm going here?
An important rule to remember when playing the grading game "Learn from your mistakes & be honest with yourself".
77s
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#2427 - 08/26/02 11:34 AM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: downgoesfrazier]
Lothar52
enthusiast


Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 240
Loc: Ohio, USA

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at this point i should have them all regraded so that i least like lookin at them in there holder.. ya know??? i think i was stupid for buyin a few pro cards...but it was back 2 years ago when they all popped up and the stupid newbies to the hobby thought there were getting a deal. Heck i never did the follow:

saw one person buy a PRO 9.0 89 UD for 300 bucks
ditto on a PRO 9.8 Mcgwire for 1200

bet them guys feel like DUMMIES

lothar52
_________________________
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I love CAKE....

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#2428 - 08/26/02 11:36 AM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: downgoesfrazier]
Lothar52
enthusiast


Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 240
Loc: Ohio, USA

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ive been lookin at auctions and online.... ive seen cards i have in PRO... ie i have a PRO 9.5 92 bowman Piazza RC.... its listed at 50 bucks in becketts others mint+...but ungraded mint at 60.....

this makes since to go ahead and bust them out of the PRO holder no???


anybody know how to bust out a PRO/USA holder?????

lol

lothar52
_________________________
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I love CAKE....

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#2429 - 08/26/02 04:07 PM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: Lothar52]
downgoesfrazier
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 222
Loc: Summer of '77

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L,
Never tried PRO. As for USA...try a chainsaw The plastic is "soft" and truly melted together. I have some SSPC's that are razors in USA holders...forget about it.
77s
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#2430 - 08/27/02 07:07 AM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: downgoesfrazier]
Lothar52
enthusiast


Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 240
Loc: Ohio, USA

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really??? u dont think i can get them out huh?? PRO and USA use same holders

lothar52
_________________________
--------------------
I love CAKE....

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#2431 - 08/27/02 04:56 PM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: Lothar52]
downgoesfrazier
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 222
Loc: Summer of '77

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L, If you can, LMK how. I tried everything but the USC marching band and couldn't do it without putting the card at serious risk.
By the way, STOP BUYING PRO GRADED CARDS!!!
77s
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#2432 - 11/22/02 01:03 PM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: downgoesfrazier]
stanthemanfan
If I just sell the car, I can up my bid...


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 366

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I haven't won a PRO Ebay auction yet - but some of the cards look real nice from the scans. Won't know until I'm holding one in person. though. I just received my first GAI card (NM/MT). Better than a PSA, a hair below an 88. I plan to cross-over for a common holder and the set registry. $3 is a pretty sweet deal.

The GAI is a hard call on what I think a cross-over grade will be. I have noticed SGC's 88's can vary greatly lately - I will post my results in about a month - my guess is an 86.

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#2433 - 11/30/02 04:46 PM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: stanthemanfan]
Anonymous Unregistered



I also have some stuff to cross over. I have a few GAI cards now. I actually think they're accurately graded. They look cool in that holder so I'll only cross over my Becketts and PSA's. Anyone know how to open these?
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#2434 - 12/01/02 06:56 AM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader??
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

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BigRed,

Your best bet is to let Sgc and the grader open the other company's holder(s).
They know what they are doing and should be able to tell if a card will
cross over. At least this is how I go about it with the crossover service.
You can always call them and ask them for the best course of action.

aconte
_________________________

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#2435 - 12/02/02 03:25 AM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: downgoesfrazier]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

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I've been successful using something a bit less than a chain saw...but not much!

A chop saw actually works great -- I chop the holder between the card and the tag and then use a little screw driver to do the rest. It sounds really wicked, but it works. A friend of mine uses a similar technique -- but a hand saw version.

SS


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#2436 - 12/02/02 03:28 AM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: srs1a]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

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I forgot to add -- I agree 100% with aconte -- let the folks at SGC look at the card first...and just tell them the minimum grade that you would be OK with...then you have nothing to risk except the x-over fee. I used the chop saw trick when I was submitting elsewhere.
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#2437 - 12/02/02 10:57 AM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: srs1a]
deadlyembrace
The Venus Card Trap


Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 596
Loc: Austin, TX

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Hey SS --

In reply to:

let the folks at SGC look at the card first...and just tell them the minimum grade that you would be OK with...then you have nothing to risk except the x-over fee




Do you know whether a preliminary review is included in the "Set Registry" special pricing for cross-overs ... or would that be an extra charge? I know that, in the past, SGC has advertised a cross-over review for $5 which would then be applied to the cost of the cross over if you chose to proceed ... but that was when the cost of crossing over was higher ($15 ... ???). Also, is there a "bust out" fee?

Any inside scoop would be helpful.

BTW, has anyone actually taken advantage of the cross-over special yet?


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#2438 - 12/06/02 12:42 PM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: deadlyembrace]
stanthemanfan
If I just sell the car, I can up my bid...


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 366

Offline
Deadly

Yeah, I sent in 5 cards for cross-over about 1 week ago. PSA/GAI assortment (50's & 60's). I set an achievable min SGC grade (80) for all of the cards. For $3 per card - the cost of shipping on my small quantity made no sense to set a high Min grade and run the risk of a returned card. All of the cards are going to run in the 86 - 92 grade range. Sole purpose is to match the rest of my collection - SGC only.

I did cross-over 1 card at the very high rate of $15 - a gorgeous 59 Drysdale changed over to a 92. Up until a few months ago - I had not purchased a non-SGC vintage graded card. Having picked up a few GAI and PSA's - I reaffirmed my stance to collect only SGC cards. I think SGC does a great job. I hope SGC keeps the lower cross-over fee rather than running a limited time special.

Curious - are there any other 1950's Bowman collectors out there?

Thanks

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#2439 - 01/03/03 10:13 AM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: deadlyembrace]
strider
Hobbyist


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 62
Loc: Washington State

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I cross-overed sixteen cards PSA and BGS cards I had from the 1967 Topps Football set I'm collecting. It completes this set of SGC-graded cards. I'm pretty happy with the crossover grades, and now I'm going to concentrate on upgrading the set. I'm hoping to get a few more potential graded candidates to cross-over before the Set Registry Special offer goes away. I'm also looking for raw cards that could upgrade this set.

Good luck with your cross-over experience.

-Daniel

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#2440 - 01/03/03 11:21 AM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: strider]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

Offline
Daniel,

Congratulations on completing the set!!! Really nice set, too...and thanks for uploading the pics.

Would it be possible to post the results of your cross-over experience -- I'm in the process of doing one and will post the results when I get everything back in hand (should be next week).

Scott






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#2441 - 01/03/03 12:20 PM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: srs1a]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

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Congrats! Go Daniel! Go SGC!
_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#2442 - 01/03/03 10:50 PM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: vayank]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

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Let's Give Strider His Props on the SGC Registry Board!
_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#2443 - 01/06/03 03:19 AM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: vayank]
stanthemanfan
If I just sell the car, I can up my bid...


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 366

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I just got my results this morning from my 1st submission of cross-over cards from PSA and GAI. This was part of the currently running "Set Registry" Special

Overall - I was pleasantly surprised. Here are the results.

1. 1950 Bowman Preston Ward - originally in a PSA 8 holder that I bought on Ebay. Crossed-over to an SGC92 - Very surprised in a very good way. I was sweating a cross to an 88 when I sent it in - let alone a 1/2 grade bump up. 1 for me.

2. 1968 Topps Bill Freehan - originally in a PSA 9 holder that I bought on EBay. Crossed over to an SGC96. Very happy with the grade. Was expecting a 92 - T/B centering was so-so. Another 1 for me.

3. 1962 Topps Don Drysdale AS - originally in a PSA 8 - went to a 86 holder. A bit of disappointment. 1 against me. The only 1962 card I own and it had 2 very slight touched corners. I am not knowledgeable at all on 1962's concerning how they grade out. '62's are tough and I have a renewed appreciation for anyone doing a high-grade '62 set. Hat's off to DeadlyEmbrace. Overall, I lost money on this experiment - but it is still a nice piece of cardboard.

4. 1964 Topps Roger Maris - originally in a PSA8 - went to a 92. This card was the backbone of my submission. I know he won't ever end up in Cooperstown - but I really like Maris cards. The 92 is what I expected and would have been crushed if it came back anything lower than a 92.

5. 1950 Bowman Allie Clark - originally in a GAI 8 holder - went to a 86. An accurate grade and one that did not surprise me.

This is my first (granted small population) cross-over and based on the results - can absolutely make no conclusions on buying non-SGC cards for cross-over.

I'll report my next cross-over results in a month.

STMF


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#2444 - 01/06/03 04:55 AM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: stanthemanfan]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

Offline
interesting stuff. waiting to hear about your pro crossover....Will the gamble pay off...
_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#2445 - 01/06/03 05:24 AM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: stanthemanfan]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

Offline
STMF -- great results...I think you won round one!

Scott

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#2446 - 01/06/03 05:26 AM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: vayank]
stanthemanfan
If I just sell the car, I can up my bid...


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 366

Offline
I received some PM from srs1a that leads me to believe the card has a good chance of being trimmed. I honestly never thought about trimmed edges when bidding - I was assuming the corners would be soft compared to an equivalent SGC high-grade.

I have a feeling I'm going to take some well deserving crap from the board due to my somewhat boastful posting on "buying card holders and not the card, etc".

I will be really surprised if it comes back clean and in a high-grade SGC holder.

Time will tell.


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#2447 - 01/06/03 06:46 AM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: stanthemanfan]
Anonymous Unregistered



STMF,

Did you take the cards out of the holder before sending to Sgc?

aconte

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#2448 - 01/06/03 06:55 AM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader??
stanthemanfan
If I just sell the car, I can up my bid...


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 366

Offline
aconte,

No.

I did not take anything out of their holders - for the card results I listed today - I sent them in the PSA or GAI slabs. Same for the 2nd set of cards which includes 1 PRO, 2 GAI, and 1 PSA.

I was hoping to see a trend - do PSA's get higher cross-over grades vs another companies's holder - maybe help with future card purchases that are intended for cross-over. I did not and honestly - do not want to see any influence on grades from SGC. I think they were fair on my 5.

From the 5 I got results on this morning - the only shock was the 1 1950 Bowman. I collect that set - so I won't complain!


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#2449 - 01/06/03 07:20 AM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: stanthemanfan]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

Offline
STMF,

I'm not aware of any trend as far as cross over for Psa cards. It really
depends on the card. Maybe the old Psa holders are graded with a loose
standard but I have no factual data to back up the claim. Just that the
concensus by many is that grading has gotten stricter over the years.
I'm sure there are exceptions though.

Good luck on the Pro card. Maybe you will get lucky and the card will
be ok. I have my doubts along with the others who have commented so
far.

Thanks for answering my question and good luck on future submissions.

I have crossed over about 10-12 red man cards in Psa 8 to Sgc 88
from the 1954 set. I have three that would not cross to Sgc 88 and
one that was considered trimmed in the Psa 8 holder. It seemed
short but I submitted it anyhow.

aconte
_________________________

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#2450 - 01/06/03 02:22 PM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: aconte]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

Offline
I received my GA 8 1977 Topps Steve Carlton. Good holder. Black borders with corner cut outs display the card smartly. Upper part of the holder is translucent with a silver label for a modern look. It's wafer thin, so it lacked the sturdy yet compact feel of a SGC holder. Clearly better than Beckett's or PSA's holder. Left a favorable impression. I will be crossing over the card to the top holder -- SGC. When I get around to crossing over I will report on the results.
_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#2451 - 01/06/03 05:22 PM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: srs1a]
strider
Hobbyist


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 62
Loc: Washington State

Offline
Here are the results of the cards I submitted for cross-over.

PSA 8 to SGC 92 - 1
PSA 8 to SGC 88 - 8
PSA 8 to SGC 86 - 5
PSA 7 to SGC 84 - 3
PSA 7 to SGC 80 - 1
PSA 6 to SGC 80 - 1
BGS 7 to SGC 84 - 1
BGS 6.5 to SGC 84 - 1
BGS 6 to SGC 80 - 2
GAI 8 to SGC 88 - 1
FGS 9 to SGC 88 - 1
AGS 7 to SGC 84 - 1

Summary:

Two were graded higher after the cross-over.
Seventeen graded the same
Seven graded lower.

That's my experience so far. Let me know if you'd like more details.

-Daniel

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#2452 - 01/07/03 01:49 AM Re: Crossing Over to SGC, What would be best off brand Grader?? [Re: strider]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

Offline
Daniel, you did a tad better than I, but overall we got amazingly similar results...mine are for '68 baseball


12% of my PSA-8's got a upgrade to 92's (your result was 7%)
47% of my PSA-8's went to 88's (your result was 57%)
41% of my PSA-8's would have gone down (your result was 36%)

So in both our cases, roughly 60% of our PSA-8's crossed to an equal or greater SGC grade/ 40% did not.

Our results on PSA-7's were also very similar...8/11 (73%) of mind crossed to an equal or higher grade...3/11 (27%) did not...you got 75% / 25%

My results for BGS graded cards were also very positive -- one 7.5 went to a 92 and one 8 went to a 92.

Scott

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