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#301580 - 01/01/04 08:10 PM BOGUS SGC CARD??
njdolphins
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Dear All

I need opinions on this one. If this is a bogus card as I presume it to be, we need to get the auction shut down immediately.

Look at the Serial number! Never seen anything like that before.

Thoughts? comments??


1987 Fleer Barry Bonds SGC 98 - True Or FALSE?

Thanks!

Ron
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#301581 - 01/01/04 08:18 PM Re: BOGUS SGC CARD?? [Re: njdolphins]
njdolphins
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Also

The font looks all wrong to me as well and I've got SGC cards in what I thought to be all kinds of labels. Looking for a more veteran opinion than mine.

R
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#301582 - 01/01/04 08:44 PM Re: BOGUS SGC CARD?? [Re: njdolphins]
deadlyembrace
The Venus Card Trap


Registered: 06/19/02
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A call to SGC to validate the serial number could clear this up quickly.
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#301583 - 01/01/04 08:55 PM Re: BOGUS SGC CARD?? [Re: deadlyembrace]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
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The scan was too poor for me to get a good enough look. It could just be an idiot seller. I would count on the serial # being incorrectly typed in the description. I would email the seller and ask for the serial number and a better scan.
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---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#301584 - 01/01/04 09:20 PM Re: BOGUS SGC CARD?? [Re: njdolphins]
deadlyembrace
The Venus Card Trap


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The serial number is: 23467948-076
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#301585 - 01/02/04 05:34 AM My New Years wish for SGC [Re: deadlyembrace]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
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Please get a certification number look up operational!!! It would certainly help in cases like this. All of SGC competitors offer this (PSA. GAI. BVG/BGS)....its time for SGC to offer it, as well (IMHO).

Back to the thread...

I agree with Ron, the font looks a bit odd and I have never seen a certification number start with a "2" -- these days, they start with a "1" (hardcopy invoice) or and "8" (on-line invoice). I don't have much experience with this vintage flip, but all of mine looks significantly different that this (font, barcode)

Anyone have experience with on-site grading? Could this type of flip and wierd invoice number be associated with that?



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#301586 - 01/02/04 07:42 AM Re: My New Years wish for SGC [Re: srs1a]
njdolphins
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Dear All

Spoke with SGC and this is a bogus card. What I didn't see initially was the fact the serial# is 8 digits and ALL serials are 7 in SGC land. Also a number 2 at the start is an illogical even if it were 7 digits.

SGC will see what they can do to shut down the auction.

Ron
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#301587 - 01/02/04 08:34 AM This auction has more ???'s [Re: njdolphins]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
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Why would a guy with great feedback sell a bogus graded card?

Is the flip wrong?

I got more questions than answers from all the posts.

aconte
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#301588 - 01/02/04 10:11 AM Re: This auction has more ???'s [Re: aconte]
deadlyembrace
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I decided to email the seller directly on this ... the content of my email appears below:

-----------------------------------------

Hi James --

As an SGC-only collector, I wanted to send you a friendly email regarding this card.

There has been much discussion about this '87 Fleer #604 Barry Bonds (SGC 98 - serial number 23467948-076) card on the SGC message boards. To view the entire discussion:

1. go to www.sgccard.com,
2. click "Visit SGC's Message Boards"
3. scroll to the bottom of the message board Main Index page until you see an entire section of message threads for SGC
4. click "Modern Cards"
5. click "BOGUS SGC CARD??" to view all posts in the thread.

The card has been exposed as fraudulent via a call to SGC for serial number validation.

Given that your feedback rating is so high and clean, I assume you are unaware of the fact that you are auctioning a fake. The right thing to do would be to pull the auction.

Again, this is just a friendly FYI ...

Mark Schwenke
Ebay ID: deadlyembrace

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#301589 - 01/02/04 10:38 AM Re: This auction has more ???'s [Re: deadlyembrace]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
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I agree with Tony -- more questions than answers here. I looked at all of the sellers auctions this morning and he has several other high-grade SGC cards that look just fine. I expect that the seller was a victim in a previous transaction.

However, I would think that Sean or someone else at SGC might wish to clear this up. Is this the first that anyone in Parsippany has seen of these wierd flips? If not, how many have come to light?...and in what timeframe?

Scott

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#301590 - 01/02/04 11:00 AM Re: This auction has more ???'s [Re: srs1a]
SeanSGC
Everything SGC


Registered: 02/01/02
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Gentlemen,

I am aware of the bogus Bonds card that is currently on eBay. I have been in contact with eBay's fraud department today and the auction should be removed within 24 hours. To answer Scott's question, I have not seen this version of a bogus SGC label before, but I have seen other crude reproductions of an SGC label on one or two other occassions. This is a rare and unfortunate situation, but thanks to all of the board members for bringing these potential frauds to light.

Happy New Year,
Sean-SGC

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#301591 - 01/02/04 01:38 PM Re: This auction has more ???'s [Re: SeanSGC]
njdolphins
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Officer Sean

Thanks for getting the auction closed down. Hopefully we wont see many, if any, bogus cards going forward.

Regards

Ron
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#301592 - 01/02/04 01:59 PM Re: This auction has more ???'s [Re: njdolphins]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
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I would like to know the seller's response. His feedback suggests he was a victim. Where did he the card?
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---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#301593 - 01/03/04 02:40 AM Re: This auction has more ???'s [Re: vayank]
MW1
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The auction has been removed from eBay.

For those who might be interested, our pal Soloman Cramer (beefcake210 on the CU forum, the1derer on this forum) tries to draw an analogy between a single card (the Bonds) and the WIWAG/PSA holder scandal.

Link to thread

Keep in mind, folks, that this is the same person who has admitted on a public forum that he'll do anything to make money -- even if it means defrauding customers with his thousands of reprinted cards he sells on eBay, or cutting up uncut sheets and passing the cards off as factory direct. EBay has already banned one of Solomon's pet projects (remember FGA?) from its site for its fraudulent grading activities (remember those reprinted Bazookas he got caught red-handed with?).

If this situation teaches us anything, it is (ironically) to avoid doing business with Solomon Cramer.

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#301594 - 01/03/04 04:20 AM Re: This auction has more ???'s [Re: MW1]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
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Well, I would be surprised if that was Sol Cramer, and would be disappointed it was. The text is reminiscent of another anti-Wentz.

In any case, has anyone heard back from the seller? Until then, this whole thread could be premature. People screw up drescriptions all the time. They cut and paste, they mis-type, they make a mistake -- and the incorrect description does not get corrected. The serial # could be the error. And then this thread gets created, then Sean makes a call, but I am not sure anyone actually confirmed the serial number with the seller. I'm glad for this thread and the auction's removal as a precaution.

I'm not saying that is the case, but we don't know know one way or other as a fact. Hopefully the seller will respond.
_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#301595 - 01/03/04 05:21 AM Re: This auction has more ???'s [Re: vayank]
njdolphins
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Matt

Did you actually look at the auction that I linked in when it was still around? If so, you would have noted that the bogus serial number was quite plainly on the holder itself in addition to being within the text of the auction so when I called SGC I felt justified in doing so and there really couldn't be any mistake.

The seller has sent me an email and claims to be someone named James Feng. He claims that he bought the card a couple of years ago and was misled.

MW: How are you sure this is really Sol Cramer? This fellow claiming to be Feng gave me a phone number should I care to contact him. A bold bluff?

Ron
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#301596 - 01/03/04 05:33 AM Re: This auction has more ???'s [Re: njdolphins]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


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NJD > I did look, but the scan was so blurry I could not read the serial number. I therefore I could not be certain. You were entirely justified in your post.

I would call him. See what he says.
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---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#301597 - 01/03/04 06:37 AM Re: This auction has more ???'s [Re: njdolphins]
MW1
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Quote:

MW: How are you sure this is really Sol Cramer?



The clues are many. PM me and I'll send you proof.


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#301598 - 01/03/04 06:48 AM Re: This auction has more ???'s [Re: MW1]
jackstraw
Talkative?


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Ron
i was at work when the whole thing went down. any way we could get the users ebay name and maybe a link to his other auctions?

john
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#301599 - 01/03/04 07:20 AM Re: This auction has more ???'s [Re: jackstraw]
njdolphins
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John

Here is the link to the seller's auctions

Seller of the bogus bonds' auctions

Ron
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#301600 - 01/03/04 08:30 AM Reply from the Seller [Re: njdolphins]
deadlyembrace
The Venus Card Trap


Registered: 06/19/02
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Below is the complete response (with the exception of his cellphone number) from James Feng, the card's seller. He seems like a good guy ...

----------------

hello,Mark Schwenke
i am the seller of the 1987 fleer bonds sgc 98 ebay auction.
i got home tonight and check on my auction.
i find out that ebay end one of my bonds auction early because of the ebay
VeRO) Program .
then i read you email, find out more about the bonds card are bogus card.
i went to SGC's Message Boards.
i am glad that's my auction had beened removed.
i do not want to sell bogus card.
i am the victim of this thing, i brought this card from ebay about 2 years
ago
i put that on the side when i receive the card.
i used to verifie the serial # on all my psa and bgs cards.
but sgc card i don't know how to verifie the serial #.
i can't believe people sold me a bogus card.
i find that card out and take a closer look at it.
i find out that the card holder has beened opened and glue it back together.
i don't know what's to do with this card. i am so sorry that i lsit stuff
like this
i'm in ebay about 3 years now i brought lots of stuffs and i sold lots of
stuffs on ebay
people had scam me before. i know how that''s feel.
i am a honest ebayer,on all my ebay auction that i list i always list the
serial # on it.
to let people know that's the cards are real.
thanks for letting me know
please call me if you have any question
james

--------------

Way to go James ...

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#301601 - 01/03/04 06:07 PM Re: This auction has more ???'s [Re: njdolphins]
Sean_C
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I don't think he was saying that the seller was Solomon, but rather the other 2 ID's from this and the PSA boards were him.

Quote:



Matt

MW: How are you sure this is really Sol Cramer? This fellow claiming to be Feng gave me a phone number should I care to contact him. A bold bluff?

Ron


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Apt reading.

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#301602 - 01/03/04 07:46 PM Solomon Cramer. *DELETED* [Re: Sean_C]
MW1
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Post deleted by dena

Edited by SGCmod (01/04/04 06:22 AM)

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#301603 - 01/13/04 05:58 AM Re: Bogus Bonds Card, cont'd [Re: MW1]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
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All,

Shortly after the auction was closed down, I contacted the seller (James Feng) about purchasing the card for the bid price when it closed. I felt that it would be worth the cost to be able to examine the card and see exactly what had happened.

James responded that he felt that the card was worthless and would send it to me free of charge. I received the card last night and I will be sending a package back to him with as soon as I get it put together. My take on this is that James is a straight up and honest guy that got taken on eBAY. I would encourage all of you to view his auctions and see if there is anything that is of interest to you -- again, I would expect that he took a pretty good loss on this card.

I will be posting detailed scans of the card within the next day or two. My take after examining the card last night is that it is a pretty poor attempt. The flip suffers from a great numbers of problems -vs- the real one. The holder is clearly frosted all around the perimeter where it was cracked and re-glued (It looks like the glue did the "frosting", but will examine it further when I have my glasses handy ).

After I finish up the scans, etc...I plan on cracking out the card and submitting it to SGC (if unaltered, the card is actually pretty sweet....but I know nothing about '87 Fleers). Given the amount of glue that appears to have been used, the card removal may not be exactly straight-forward and I may need to get out my trusty chop saw! Assuming it comes back in a legit SGC holder, I will either return the card to James or buy it from him (his choice).

More to come....

Scott




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#301604 - 01/13/04 12:09 PM Re: Bogus Bonds Card, cont'd [Re: srs1a]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
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Scott,

Thanks for the follow-up. I'm looking forward to seeing the scans of the holder
and label. Good work!

aconte
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#301605 - 01/14/04 06:30 AM Re: Bogus Bonds Card [Re: aconte]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

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The bogus card has a counterfeit label and I've scanned a good one with the same vintage label. The scans follow. It is a relatively large file (about 1MB), so it may take a while to load but I wanted to make sure that everyone could get a good look at it.





The differences in labels are pretty obvious with more than a few problems -vs- the real one. Looks like a ink jet printer was used on regular paper...and the "bar code" appears to be simply the vertical bar on your key board with normal and bold font. Again, the issues are obvious.

Also, note the frosting of the slab seal region...and also note the glue that oozed out of the right side of the slab.

The goo and ooze were extremely obvious when the side of the slabbed was viewed -- here's a scan of the sides of the 2 slabs. The left side of the Bonds card is shown here -- that's the "good" one.



So, my conclusions are:

(1) counterfeit label (and a poor one)
(2) amateur crack and glue job resulting in obvious issues on the holder




Scott





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#301606 - 01/14/04 07:19 AM Re: Bogus Bonds Card [Re: srs1a]
deadlyembrace
The Venus Card Trap


Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 596
Loc: Austin, TX

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Scott --

Outstanding work!!

And your scans give me move comfort in the "tamper resistence" quality of SGC's slabs. Has anyone ever seen an instance of an SGC slab being opened/resealed without the fracturing evident in Scott's scans?




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