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#306365 - 01/07/04 08:19 AM HOF ballot
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
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I was extremely suprised to see the complete lack of support for Joe Carter in the recent ballot -- he failed to get the 5% required to stay on the ballot next year. Here are his stats -vs- some other guys that will be on the ballot again...and I don't think that any of these guys ever had a walk off homer in the series (that one still hurts me to even think about it...Mitch Williams...what a loser )

----------------hits------HRs------RBIs-------average-------% support in HOF ballot

Carter----------2184---396------1445-------.259-----------3.8
Rice------------2452---382------1451-------.298-----------54.5
Dawson-------2774---438------1591-------.279-----------15
Parker---------2712---339------1493-------.290-----------10
Murphy--------2111---398------1197-------.265-----------8.5

It is amazing to me that Rice gets so much support -- look at his numbers -vs- Dawson

Scott



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#306366 - 01/07/04 09:30 AM Re: HOF ballot [Re: srs1a]
njdolphins
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Registered: 05/30/03
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Scott

You've hit a nerve here. Let me preface this by saying that I rooted for the Yanks when Rice was in his prime and yet I think he should be a sure fire HOF'er. Not to take anything away from Carter but Rice was truely regarded as the most feared slugger in the AL for just about 10 years. I guess I always felt that Carter was regarded as an above average slugger but not quite the best amongst his peers during his era.

Looking a bit deeper than just the raw numbers we see the following


Lifetime AVG/OBA: Carter:.259/.306 Rice: .298/.352
All Star: Carter: 5 times Rice: 9 times
MVP: Carter: 10th, 9th, 5th, 3rd Rice: 5th, 4th, 4th, 3rd, 3rd, 1st
HRs: Carter: Never led league Rice: led league 3 times

Now I don't want to take away from Carter because he was an EXCELLENT player in his own right but I believe the 40 point difference in BA, almost double the All-Star selections, Rice being an annual legitimate MVP candidate and leading the league in HR's 3 times to Carter's none makes a big difference to the voters.

So BBWAA stop punishing Rice for being surly during his playing days and let him in.

Ron
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#306367 - 01/07/04 10:01 AM Re: HOF ballot [Re: njdolphins]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
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Ron, I agree with your comparisons on Rice -vs- Carter. However, I am still suprised by the lack of support that Carter got. All in all, I guess that it doesn't really matter that he is off the ballot, I suppose he wouldn't make it anyway...and Murphy and Parker will fall off soon enough.

I've been (am still am) a NL fan, so Rice never did anything for me. If you look at the classic metrics, I think he falls short.

400 dingers -- nope
.300 average -- nope
3000 hits -- nope

I guess I should look at his numbers by season, but personally, I don't think you can make a case for a guy that almost hit 300 and almost hit 400 HRs. I think he falls into the category of really good player, but not a HOFer.

Now, what do your comparisons say about the hawk? I really like him and he has nice numbers, but I put him in the same category as Rice.

Scott

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#306368 - 01/07/04 10:15 AM Re: HOF ballot [Re: srs1a]
njdolphins
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Scott

Rice's problem was that he had 10 incredible years and kinda fell off a cliff. HOF credentials seem to differ from player to player. You have the average/HR stuff that you mentioned (Rice would have been 300 average without those couple sad years at the end and 400 homers if he didn't fall off the cliff) but I guess I look at it as whether or not a player dominated their position during their era and I use 10 years as an era. Rice was IMHO a monster for 10 years.

As for Dawson, another player that deserves support but I know he will get branded as being a "compiler" so his stats will be discounted. That is going to happen to Fred McGriff as well who will likely reach 500 HR's if he plays next year.

My 2 cents

Ron
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#306369 - 01/07/04 06:16 PM Re: HOF ballot [Re: srs1a]
wrigleyfield
Collector is an understatement.


Registered: 12/08/02
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I think Carter's .259 lifetime average is what keeps him out and his support low.

Joe
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#306370 - 01/07/04 06:23 PM Re: HOF ballot [Re: njdolphins]
stanthemanfan
If I just sell the car, I can up my bid...


Registered: 10/28/02
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Jim Rice and Joe Carter aside, forget about the Pete Rose circus, lets look at what makes no sense - Bert Blyleven getting completely forgotten by the voters.

1. 287 wins - 60 coming by way of a shutout. 1 out of 5 of his wins is a complete game shutout!
2. A career ERA of 3.31 over 22 years pitching for some lousy teams. What's Clemen's pitching for good teams.
3. 685 games started - 242 complete games. 35% (1 out of 3) games, he goes start to finish.
4. 3:1 strikeout to walk ratio. For anyone who has pitched (even little league) a 2:1 ratio is considered very good. Think about 3:1.
5. 5-1 in post-season with a 2.41 ERA (I would consider that coming up big time when the games really count).
6. 3rd on the all-time strikeout list. What better metric to determine a dominance of a pitcher than a stat counting the number of times that professional batter's couldn't hit the ball.

Yes he lost 250 games - but when you need to keep the opposing team to under 3 runs a game to win, its a bit tough not to pick up a lot of losses.

Apparently, there must be something I'm missing.

Anyway, congrats to Molitor and Eck.

I have fond memories of seeing Eck pitch during his great 1992 season at Fenway against the Sox. The Red Sox rallied to beat him in the bottom of the 9th. It was late in the season and Fenway was rocking that night!

STMF



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#306371 - 01/07/04 07:05 PM Re: HOF ballot [Re: stanthemanfan]
njdolphins
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STMF

I agree. The Dutch Master deserves more consideration than he is receiving. Of course I also think Bruce Sutter and Rich Gossage deserve to go in.

Ron
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#306372 - 01/07/04 07:10 PM Re: HOF ballot ---- Blyleven should be in! [Re: stanthemanfan]
estang
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Registered: 11/15/02
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I'm a Minny homer/sports rube. All of that aside, Stan The Man Fan is absolutely correct about Blyleven. I think he is just as or slightly more deserving than Eckersly. Definitely more deserving than Lee Smith, Gossage, Fingers and Sutter (not even close). I'd say he was a better pitcher than Don Sutton.

Let's also not forget that Bert played on 2 World Series Champions in 79 & 87. The 1987 Twins were the worst team (by record) to ever win a World Series and they did it with 2 real good starters (Viola is the other) and Les Straker was the 3rd SP!

Nolan Ryan also lost a lot of games and played on fairly losing teams. Perhaps if you project Bert's numbers against Ryan by Innings Pitched, he'd match up closer than you think to Ryan.

Tommy John is right there with 287 wins, and I must admit that I don't know much about him. However 287 wins is a helluva lot of wins. We'll be hard pressed to see many SPs in the future reach that number in the next 50 years. I think John, Blyleven and Jack Morris will have to wait until the Veterans Committee gets them in.

IMHO, no one else on the ballot jumps out at me to get in the hall as a hitter. Guys like Rice, Dawson, Carter, Sandberg, Trammell, Parker are very very good players. However, the baseball HOF is the most elite of all American pro sports and they just don't quite hit that elite level. Let's not forget guys like Bill Madlock, Al Oliver, Bill Buckner put up a lot of hits in their own right. I think these players along with Dale Murphy and Mattingly may just have to wait a long time or never to get in.

Then you look at guys like Billy Williams, Tony Perez and Bill Mazeroski who all eventually got in and you wonder where to draw the line.

Anyway, Blyleven appears to be gaining some steam with his %.

A fun debate.

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#306373 - 01/08/04 10:20 PM Re: HOF ballot [Re: srs1a]
murph0
TOTAL NEWBIE


Registered: 06/20/02
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I'm not a big baseball fan so forgive me if this question seems fairly rhetorical. Why is Ryne Sandberg not voted into the HoF? Wasn't he like a really good player? He's the only person I ever heard about in baseball. Might've just been the proximity to Chicago though.

Brian
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#306374 - 01/09/04 06:18 AM Re: HOF ballot [Re: murph0]
OldSchoolTerry
Talkative?


Registered: 11/10/03
Posts: 827
Loc: Little Rhody

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Quote:

I'm not a big baseball fan so forgive me if this question seems fairly rhetorical. Why is Ryne Sandberg not voted into the HoF? Wasn't he like a really good player? He's the only person I ever heard about in baseball. Might've just been the proximity to Chicago though.

Brian




Umm, you never heard of Babe Ruth?........
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That was John Miesegaes...that guy's a goddamn idiot. You don't want the panties in the underwear drawer that are all clean and sh**--you want the ones in the laundry hamper got the stank on 'em. -Daniel Way, referring to John M's comment that Ant-Man could hang out in supermodels' underwear drawers. Am I the only one who thinks Terry's Sig Line is a bit over the line? If I was Joanna or LucyBop, I'd tear him a new one. -Joe Collector

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