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#309146 - 01/28/04 04:32 AM Re: A correction and some questions [Re: Sean_C]
deadlyembrace
The Venus Card Trap


Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 596
Loc: Austin, TX

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Sean --

One last comment ...

Quote:

The second check was designed so that people couldn't "kidnap" or "hold hostage" #'s in the registry.




I didn't realize that set building was such a cutthroat endeavor, in the PSA world, that kidnapping or holding serial numbers hostage would even be an issue.

My mistake. I stand corrected.

Two thumbs up for the non-competitive nature of the SGC Registry!!


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#309147 - 01/28/04 07:56 AM Re: A correction and some questions [Re: deadlyembrace]
KLL
Hobbyist


Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 62

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Greg


I have been following this thread for a while and must tip my hat to you for your efforts. Near as I can tell, from the little that I know about what occurred with WIGWAG/PSA, you most definitely have the greatest knowledge regarding this matter. But when do you stop this apparent never-ending editorial trip that you are on. You keep beating the same drum over and over again. Your point has been made. In fact, your contributions, insights and opinions are far more informative then any others that have been expressed over the past year. But this same point and a few variations of it have been made 100’s of times by you. This has gone beyond the “I want to fix/better the hobby”.

I am not sure where your motivation for continuing these efforts comes from. You have admitted that you have alienated yourself from many collectors/potential customers. So why continue? Some people just have that need for pushing the envelope, which you certainly do. Maybe you see your efforts as being a sure fire road to card heaven, some type of martyrdom. I don’t know.

What I do know is that you have a lot to offer this board. I fear that you will soon suffer the same fate here as you did on the CU board. You seem to have great difficulty in controlling yourself and this uncontrollable need to keep pushing the envelope will lead to your ultimate demise on another collector’s forum. And my gut feeling is you are getting very close to that end.

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#309148 - 01/28/04 09:58 AM Re: A correction and some questions [Re: KLL]
grilloj39
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 215
Loc: San Antonio, TX

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I agree that the PSA registry set collectors do go overboard with the competition aspect of building their sets...they even have awards like "rookie of the year", "set of the year" which is ridiculous imo.

however, if it brings enjoyment for these guys so let it be. It may alienate some set collectors who collect mid-low grade sets only. In addition, I do think some of these set collectors would like any PSA 8 or PSA 9 graded card irregardless of the card's condition...it is the slab and label that some of these folks care about.

I know I have said this before, but I think mixed grade sets can be actually stronger sets in the sense that the collector will be "open-minded" enough to buy the most accurately mint or near-mint, mint card irregardless of holder, resulting in a sharper looking set, card wise, not label wise.
_________________________
Always looking for GAI,SGC,PSA vintage Hockey and Boxing.

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#309149 - 02/04/04 03:08 PM "I Am A Dreamer" A Short Story By Dan Markel [Re: grilloj39]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

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I see that Dan Markel (one of Joe's 1%ers) is flapping his lips again on the WIWAG topic. Was wondering...when someone is so delusional that he actually believes the things that he says and writes can he still be called a liar? It was however refreshing to finally see Dan address this issue without having to change the topic and create other distractions. Here is what was written by a certain clueless individual on the CU forum.

Saturday January 31, 2004 3:35 PM (NEW!)

sixdart -- My advice at this moment is to completely ignore that SGC Thread. It is infested with an over-abundant amount of ignorance and misinformation, written by people like Matthew Natalie (VaYank) and Greg Schwartz (BOTN) plus one or two others.I live in the Houston area and it's Super Bowl weekend and I've got a lot of other things going on. Early this coming week I'll send you a report with my findings plus some provide obvious reasons why some of the things written on that SGC thread are laughable and easy to verify as being false. I can also send this report to any other non-anonymous CU member that doesn't have an anti-PSA agenda. Please send me a PM if interested.Davalillo wrote:Their (sp) is a long recent thread on the SGC boards where Greg goes into considerable detail on the results of some conversations he has had.It's no surprise to me that BOTN refused to reveal his sources of those conversations. No credible or competent law enforcement officer would have made those quotes given by BOTN. In fact, it only confirmed what I expected all along: BOTN doesn't even understand what the WIWAG incident was about and also knows very little about criminal law. It also proved how desperate he is to make CU/PSA look bad.


Dan, in an effort to quash factual statements that I have reported, is going to write a report on the WIWAG scandal. Again, is it appropriate for this small time collector to appoint himself to do a job that should be done by someone like Joe "Whack Jobs" Orlando? Dan Markel is as qualified to speak on this matter as he is capable of giving birth. Orlando has been very quick to take time out of his day to address and insult members over the mayhem that occurs due to issues raised such as the half point system allegation, claims made about dealers who are thought to be "card doctors" and of course to put out fires caused by thoughtless statements he himself has made. He was quoted as having said that he would issue more information on the WIWAG scandal at the conclusion of the investigation. We, except for Dan Markel, are all still waiting.

Dan Markel will be reporting information that will be flavored by his bias and tainted by his lack of objectivity. Dan Markel has a vested interest in twisting all of the information that I have posted due to his "investment" in PSA graded cards. In a desperate attempt to continue to try to convince others to live in his fantasy world, he has also tried to discredit the good name of the investigator who handled the WIWAG with whom I spoke. This is also the investigator who handled Operation Bullpen and has far more credibility than the self-serving Dan Markel. Dan should use better judgment, if possible, when posting on a public forum. I am certain that the investigator whose name he has now smeared would not be pleased.

What I find most interesting is to watch how Dan continues to assist CU in a cover up while the very President of that company continues to show no respect for Dan nor other members of the card collecting community.

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#309150 - 02/04/04 04:55 PM Re: "I Am A Dreamer" A Short Story By Dan Markel [Re: botn]
Sean_C
Hobbyist


Registered: 10/17/03
Posts: 54

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Hey Greg, where is WIWAG's sealing machine? We can argue all day long about the "opened cases", but in the FBI's raid they never did discover any sort of sealing machine. You can't slab your own cards without someway to seal them. Where did it go?
_________________________
Apt reading.

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#309151 - 02/04/04 05:31 PM Re: "I Am A Dreamer" A Short Story By Dan Markel [Re: Sean_C]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

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I am not sure why I even answer your questions other than for the entertainment factor. Sean, have you read the official releases by CU and the the US Attorney's Office? The defendants admitted to committing fraud. From those statements [b ] In connection with their guilty pleas, the defendants admitted that they would sometimes remove cards that had been graded as 10 or 9 from the slab and replace them with lower quality cards.

So Sean, please tell me how WIWAG would sell cards in PSA holders in which they admittedly switched the properly graded cards with lower graded cards without drawing immediate suspicion, if the holders were not resealed?

First we must establish that you actually believe that the crime has occurred. Not even Joe Orlando is claiming that the crime did not occur. Next we have to assume that you would agree that the holders, which were the subject of the crime, were in fact resealed to prevent buyers from immediately identifying a problem as the cards would have just fallen out.

A sealing machine was found and confiscated by CU. As I stated Sean, there are many things in this case that are not and probably will never be made available to the public. Regardless, I am not so sure why it would surprise you if the defendants had a sealing machine. They are not that expensive and can be purchased by anyone. These are not nuclear warheads that we are talking about. I think that you should ask Orlando in an e-mail what happened to the sealing machine that they got from WIWAG on a Thursday afternoon last August.

Next question, please. Still waiting for you to readdress what my agenda is. The last time that you were so kind to grace us with your presence you made statements that were not at all factual and when I pointed this put, you disappeared. So when you get a minute, please elaborate for everyone as to what my specific agenda is. Don't feel bad Orlando himself was not able to answer the question either.

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#309152 - 02/05/04 06:42 AM we may never know the real story [Re: botn]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

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I've resisted jumping into this one, but here goes.

I'm pretty sure that we will never know to exact details of WIWAG's scam. I think we can infer a good amount by what has been released publicly and by what has not been released.

I think it is obvious that WIWAG had some sort of sealing device. Otherwise, as Greg stated, the slabs would simply pop open. If they were gluing the slabs back together, I would think this would be extremely obvious. I know that there was a member of this board that had a card replaced (or got a refund, I can't remember which) -- it would be nice if he could comment on exactly what he saw on the holder.

It seems to be an accepted fact that unsealed holders were found at WIWAG.

Joe O. has chosen not to address many of the issues associated with the scandal. At first, it was because the investigation was on-going...and I can understand this. The investigation is now over and PSA has not made any further comment despite numerous requests on the CU board. He obviously has reasons for this...which could vary from simply believing that ignoring the situation will make it go away to being concerned that releasing all of the information would cause significant damage to his business. Different people have significantly different opinions on this subject. My personal opinion is that the truth probably lies somewhere between these 2 possibilities.

Based on what I've learned on the various message boards, I believe that WIWAG was cracking out cards, and resealing an inferior card and the real PSA flip (from the old card) in a virgin holder. This is a scenario that seems likely to me.

Personally, I would think that this MO would somewhat limit the number of bogus cards in circulation...at least more so than if they were counterfeiting the flips. I have not seen or heard anything to suggest that counterfeit flips were part of the operation.

These are only my opinions based on what I have observed. They may be right, they may be wrong. Again, I don't think we will ever know the real story.

OK, I'm done

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#309153 - 02/05/04 04:10 PM Re: we may never know the real story [Re: srs1a]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

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Hey Sean,

Sounds fairly reasonable to me. Orlando certainly has time to address every issue that he calls rumors, such as the implementation of a half point system, altered cards in PSA holders and now most recently the Dmitri Young. Yet he will not address the WIWAG scandal. Most of the stuff that comes out of his mouth is not completely truthful. He knows that if he does his usual that he could be called out.

Only guys like Dude (Dan Markel), Acowa (Alan Cowart) and Wolfbear are foolish enough to let Orlando get away with this.

Greg

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#309154 - 02/06/04 10:28 AM Re: we may never know the real story [Re: botn]
Davalillo1
Collector is an understatement.


Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 119

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Greg,

I don't know if you have been following what has been going on in the PSA message boards but I have been trying to bring up issues and Toppsgun starts his attacks, people begin posting under different identities and the "hate Davalillo" crowd chimes in. This time Joe Orlando even jumped in with a couple hilarious statements.

First, I think he accused me of trying to hijack the PSA Message Boards with a small band of followers and threw a few other gratuitous insults at me. Have you ever seen a business where the president insults one of the largest owners of its product????

Secondly, despite specific evidence to the contrary he continues to insist that Dmitri Young is not crossing over his high end cards to GAI. Also he is in denial that the vast majority of his new submissions are going to GAI

Thirdly, despite my bringing it up, he completely ignores the WIWAG questions and the issue of losing experienced graders and the issue of one grader looking at a card before it is slabbed.

Fourthly,

he belittles the participants on the message boards and says in effect do you really think we would listen to people who account for 1% of our customer base.

Fifth, despite evidence that he plans to once again bring up half-grades at the Las Vegas Summit, he seems to deny that it is under consideration.

Sixth, he continues to let people like Toppsgun post on the board and other posters who I think are trolls who do nothing else but attack the messenger.

And then he wonders why I don't call him.

I analyze companies for a living and I have never seen one like this.

Jim(Davalillo)

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#309155 - 02/06/04 10:41 AM Re: Dmitri who??? [Re: Davalillo1]
deadlyembrace
The Venus Card Trap


Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 596
Loc: Austin, TX

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davillo1 or botn or whomever --

Quote:

Secondly, despite specific evidence to the contrary he continues to insist that Dmitri Young is not crossing over his high end cards to GAI. Also he is in denial that the vast majority of his new submissions are going to GAI





Please elaborate on Dmitri Young, his collection and his crossing high-end cards from PSA to GAI. I'm not familiar with the issue.



Thanks in advance.


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