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#309096 - 01/17/04 04:12 AM Re: PSA and IBS [Re: estang]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

Offline
Estang,

You may find this thread interesting...

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=242930&highlight_key=y&keyword1=strange


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#309097 - 01/17/04 06:52 AM Re: PSA and IBS [Re: botn]
JustCallMeSmelly
Just got here


Registered: 01/17/04
Posts: 1

Offline
Greg,

Go yourself.


Regards,


Alan


Edited by SGCmod (01/17/04 07:41 AM)

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#309098 - 01/17/04 08:36 AM Re: PSA and IBS [Re: JustCallMeSmelly]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

Offline
J.C.M.S.,

Would like to take the time to welcome you to the boards!

Look forward to some contests for free cards!

WELCOME!

aconte
_________________________

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#309099 - 01/17/04 09:47 AM Re: PSA and IBS [Re: aconte]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

Offline
Aconte > I was thinking the same thing as joke. Free PSA card for SGC crossover contest!

_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#309100 - 01/17/04 10:04 AM Re: PSA and IBS [Re: JustCallMeSmelly]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

Offline
Alan Coward,

If this is really you I am flattered that you would take the time to come over here to post just on my account. It seems that you are now contributing as much to the SGC forums as you do on the CU forums. What an industry leader you are!!

My only request is that you not establish any anonymous ids here like you have done on the CU forum.

Happy collecting,

Greg

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#309101 - 01/17/04 11:39 AM Re: PSA and IBS [Re: botn]
wrigleyfield
Collector is an understatement.


Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 163

Offline
Controversial topics are great. It is when the discussion degenerates into negative personal attacks that is the problem.
_________________________
WrigleyField

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#309102 - 01/17/04 01:08 PM Re: PSA and IBS [Re: wrigleyfield]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

Offline
WF > I agree!

If people want to make things intensely personal, they should use email, phone, text messaging, snail mail and the like.
_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#309103 - 01/17/04 07:39 PM Re: PSA and IBS [Re: vayank]
KLL
Hobbyist


Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 62

Offline
Could someone post a little information regarding Gary Moser? Who he is? And what is his username on ebay???

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#309104 - 01/17/04 08:33 PM Re: PSA and IBS [Re: KLL]
Davalillo1
Collector is an understatement.


Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 119

Offline
Just a word of thanks for what Michael and Greg are trying to do for the hobby.

I have met neither of these guys personally but the fact that they speak out about what is wrong with the industry and sacrifice customers who will not do business with them is admirable.

Hopefully Michael will be allowed back and both will speak out about the things that are wrong with this business.

Jim

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#309105 - 01/17/04 10:11 PM Re: PSA and IBS [Re: Davalillo1]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

Offline
Jim,

I do appreciate your support. I am not sure that you have done a whole lot of business over the years but your words are of far more significance to me. Thank you. Mike and I were just speaking tonight on the topic of the choices that each of us has made and how the results may not have been the best thing for our bottom lines. We both actually got a laugh about it. Hopefully one day people will understand that the things that have been said and written were done out of a futility and disappointment over certain occurrences in the hobby and our desire for change.

Nick M from the CU forum wrote me tonight about WIWAG I thought that I should paste the content of my e-mail here. Still slightly on topic. Hopefully CU members will read it and find it helpful, most likely it will be written off as more of my agenda.


Nick had asked a question about the holders and flips that WIWAG was using. Here is my reply:


I do know from former employees of CU that WIWAG had a sealing machine and that they had an enormous supply of unused holders. I do not know whether these were holders that they knocked off overseas or if they offered money to a corrupt CU employee to remove them from CU's inventory of holders. I understand from Steve Rocchi and Mike Baker that right before they left, CU changed over its inventory control of the holders making the possibility of someone gaining possession of them a simple process. I believe that part of the internal control process included using at least two different plastic manufactures--the top and bottom of the holders were made of slightly different plastic from these manufactures. Apparently to save costs CU decided to have one manufacturer do the entire process and get the volume discount.

As for the flips I have heard, but cannot corroborate, that WIWAG was also knocking off the flips and using cert numbers over and over. I find this hard to believe due to the volume of cards registered in collector's sets. Surely there would be a conflict very quickly if 10 different 1958 Mantles in PSA 7's all with the same cert numbers surfaced and collectors tried to register them in their sets. The gig would have been up much quicker.

I feel that WIWAG was just submitting massive quantities of cards over and over during a number of years. They were one of PSA’s largest submitters year over year. They would use "stock cards" that would continue to grade the same over and over each time getting a new flip with a unique cert number. This is very easy to pull off on modern issues even in high grade. Also could be done easily with vintage issues up to the 8 grade. WIWAG would break out the “stock card” and flip. They would take that flip and reuse it by placing it within an inferior quality card and sealing it in a new holder.

As far back as 1996 I remember having numerous discussions with Steve Rocchi about the prevalence of altered cards submitted by WIWAG. WIWAG was confronted by PSA at the time. As far back as 1989 I had spent a great deal of money with WIWAG on raw high grade material. None of it graded when it was finally sent in to PSA in 1996 due to power erasing, trimming, color added, etc. WIWAG did take some of the cards back and issue credit or refunds. The only reason that this is significant now is because they were sealing/grading their own cards and the likelihood is that many of the cards that are still in circulation may not be just "over graded" but altered and worthless.

As of a several months ago only 900 cards were bought back through the restitution program totaling less than 60K in payments to victims. It might have even been less than 30K but my memory is failing me on the amount. That is not even the tip of the iceberg. The enormity of this crime reaches at the very minimum of tens of thousands of cards. This is also the reason that CU had negotiated during the sentencing for an open ended guarantee by WIWAG to cover all cards that collectors/dealers sent in for review if they suspected foul play. CU has not gone public with that fact as far as I know.

WIWAG has some affiliation with ebay user http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=cardmrchnt%40aol.com&sort=3&rows=25&since=-1&rd=1. In fact it was someone on the CU forum several months before I was banned that saw that WIWAG was hosting this person's images for ebay auctions. They also happen to be located within extremely close proximately of one another. After the fraud charges were filed against WIWAG I was told by an upper management CU employee that WIWAG was still permitted to submit cards and sell cards but that they must do it under other people. I was told that there were a couple of people that they were doing this under. I was not told specifically who these people were but when I asked if the above person was one of them I was told "I am not able to say but you may want to avoid or at a minimum be very careful of high volume dealers out of the San Diego area."

Feel free to share all of this with anyone you want. If you want to post it to the forum in its entirety that would be fine with me. CU will only end up taking it down but people should know what is really going on. There are so many PSA faithfuls who write off anything that comes out of my mouth as my being bitter, having a hidden agenda, etc. I can assure you on my life that everything that I have written is the absolute truth as I know it from incredibly reliable sources. This hobby needs a serious overhaul. CU is not leading by example.




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