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#309056 - 01/09/04 06:26 PM PSA and IBS
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

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It would seem that some of the usual suspects on the CU forum are having another bout with Irritable Bowel Syndrome. There is nothing more hilarious than watching these boys spin their webs of denial.

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=250873

Best,
Greg

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#309057 - 01/09/04 09:15 PM Re: PSA and IBS [Re: botn]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

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The biggest idiot on that thread was me. I actually responded.

I got Psa holders that are so cloudy on the edges I'd almost swear
the holders were broken into.

I thought sending a complaint to the SEC on another thread about
a post on a message board was too funny.


aconte or srs1a but definitely not koby (thank goodness)
_________________________

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#309058 - 01/11/04 08:42 PM Re: PSA and IBS [Re: aconte]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

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BOTN >

You're a drawing card! No replies, but a goodly number of views. You're just increasing the bounty on you with this continued heresy ...LOL LOL
_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#309059 - 01/12/04 07:21 AM Re: PSA and IBS [Re: botn]
Sean_C
Hobbyist


Registered: 10/17/03
Posts: 54

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What exactly are we denying, Greg? That WIWAG didn't happen? That it wasn't poorly handled by PSA? Please explain.


Quote:

It would seem that some of the usual suspects on the CU forum are having another bout with Irritable Bowel Syndrome. There is nothing more hilarious than watching these boys spin their webs of denial.

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=250873

Best,
Greg


_________________________
Apt reading.

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#309060 - 01/12/04 07:36 AM Re: PSA and IBS [Re: Sean_C]
deadlyembrace
The Venus Card Trap


Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 596
Loc: Austin, TX

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While I wouldn't want to put words in botn's mouth, I think he is implying that the PSA faithful are severely underestimating the scope of the WIWAG scandal.

How many cards do you think were involved?


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#309061 - 01/12/04 08:30 AM Re: PSA and IBS [Re: deadlyembrace]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

content Online
All I want to know is what exactly did WIWAG do -- if they were cracking and re-sealing the same holder with another card...well, , that's one thing...and the complexity in cracking and resealing would probably limit the numbers of cards that are floating around.

If, on the other hand, they were cracking and then re-sealing new holders (meaning that they had a stack of virgin holders lying around and an ultrasonic welder, as some people assert) then that's another story all together. This would mean that you really can't spot a "tampered" holder -- because if isn't really tampered with. It has a bogus card inside, but the holder would be fine.

The second scenario is ugly indeed.





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#309062 - 01/12/04 08:56 AM Re: PSA and IBS [Re: deadlyembrace]
Sean_C
Hobbyist


Registered: 10/17/03
Posts: 54

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Well, lets take a look at things logically:

Here is WIWAG's Feedback, and here is Grade & Trade's For the sake of argument, let's say EVERY SINGLE TRANSACTION SHOWING FEEDBACK FOR EVERY CARD EVER SOLD BY THE 2, (even the SGC and BGS cards that might have been in WIWAG's inventory) WAS A RESEALED HOLDER, EVEN THE NEGATIVE ONES. The total is 19,387, or about 3/10's of a percent of all of the cards PSA has graded (basing this on an upgrade to 20,000 cards out of 6,000,000 graded PSA cards. PS, feel free to check my math, as I'm sort of doing this on the fly between phone calls). Now you, me, and the Joe Stalin all know that not all of those cards were tainted. To appease you, lets say even half were, so that would be 10,000. I don't think it's that much (I'd say less than 1,000), simply because even at 10,000 someone would have noticed sooner rather than later that their case had been tampered with. But to go throwing around the #'s I've been seeing is just plain wishful thinking.

Go ahead and bash them for things they've done or not done, but let's try to keep things in perspective here.

Quote:

While I wouldn't want to put words in botn's mouth, I think he is implying that the PSA faithful are severely underestimating the scope of the WIWAG scandal.

How many cards do you think were involved?




_________________________
Apt reading.

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#309063 - 01/12/04 11:35 AM Re: PSA and IBS [Re: Sean_C]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

Offline
Quote:

All I want to know is what exactly did WIWAG do


As I have said over and over that is a question that you folks need to press CU, specifically Joe Orlando about. If you are all satisfied with the way that CU handled this then there is no point in discussing this any further.

At the very minimum isn't odd that CU never gave exact numbers of how many cards were involved, or what to look for in the "resealed" holders. Why has CU afforded more protection to WIWAG than to its own customers who have not broken the law? Dude was the one that posted the outcome of the BS sentencing. Why has CU not followed up with this scandal but instead has decided to sweep it under the carpet?

If I owned PSA holders I would certainly want these questions and more answered. I think that you all have a right to that information since you are the ones that have made that company what it is today.


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#309064 - 01/12/04 11:37 AM clarification on grade & trade [Re: Sean_C]
estang
(S)uper Collector


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 496

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I'm familiar with wigwag and what they were doing, but not with grade and trade. Were they re-sealing cards like wigwag or switching cards on people when they sent them on their behalf to PSA to sell on the internet?

I couldn't imagine sending my cards to a dealer to send to PSA on my behalf. I think someone for SCD does this.

I also can't imagine who would want to send SCD their unopened packs to have their cards graded as "un touched" with their "white glove" process. Unless I'm getting a video tape of them opening my pack and watching them grade it...hold on, it still doesn't make sense. Why pass the enjoyment onto someone else to open a vintage pack of cards. "untouched" or "1st graded" have zero relevance. Marketing B.S.

Interested to understand what G&T was doing with PSA that got them in trouble.

_________________________
Enjoy Your Collection & SKOL VIKINGS!

Erik

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#309065 - 01/12/04 12:28 PM Re: clarification on grade & trade [Re: estang]
Sean_C
Hobbyist


Registered: 10/17/03
Posts: 54

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While others might be able to provide better details, some of the cards Grade & Trade sold came from WIWAG. Many moons ago, in a long deleted post, I had found that PSA appeared to have graded about 30 or so Ken Griffey Jr. "Broder" cards as 1989 Star cards. While trying to track everything down, half appeard in G&T auctions, some appeared in WIWAG auctions, the rest from random sellers. Shortly after I had posted my findings on the PSA boards (I posted there to get a better consensus that they were unlicensed Broder cards, even though I was pretty sure they were), my post was deleted, and all of the auctions from all of the sellers went bye-bye. It wasn't until after the FBI busted WIWAG that I was aware that one was selling cards for the other. I'm just a collector though, so some of the others here might be able to shed a bit more light on their relationship.

(BTW, I bought a PSA 9 Topps Ripken rookie from G&T, and both the card and the holder look fine to me).
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