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#335262 - 02/07/04 10:51 AM Thrown off the PSA Boards??
Davalillo1
Collector is an understatement.


Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 119

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Apparently so--they will not take my log in info.

I have to laugh--I bring up serious issues--I get regularly slammed by a small number of people who have nothing better than to do than to go into personal attacks. Oh well, I know I have lots of friends over there --many of which will sell cards to me which was the main purpose of posting over there anyway.

We will see--I believe I will be proven right over time. PSA seems to be actively considering the .5 grades and other major collectors(Dave Jacobs) have said thats it for them and psa if they do this.

For my friends, I will communicate what I know through e-mails or you can e-mail me.

Jim(Davalilllo)


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#335263 - 02/08/04 07:23 AM Re: Thrown off the PSA Boards?? [Re: Davalillo1]
Sean_C
Hobbyist


Registered: 10/17/03
Posts: 54

Offline
The fact that they would ban one of their largest collectors from their boards shows how short-sighted they (or more correctly Joe) really are. From what I had seen on the boards, you never took things personally with Joe until it he did. You might be arugumentative at times, Jim, but the issues you are/were arguing about are issues that need to be discussed, and for that you have my respect and admiration. I also appreciate the fact that you seem to have been able to separate the good (PSA's reputation and service) from the bad (Joe's inability to handle public relations), and am sad to see that you are no longer able to post there. Have you thought about escalating your concerns to Michael Haynes?
_________________________
Apt reading.

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#335264 - 02/08/04 08:20 AM Re: Thrown off the PSA Boards?? [Re: Sean_C]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

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Jim is 100% correct that PSA was going to implement the 1/2 point system back in July 2003. It was a done deal until collectors spoke out. CU realized that it may not have been in their best interest at the time and took it off of the table.

I understand from speaking with some of the major PSA Authorized Dealers that the topic is going to be revisited in Las Vegas this next weekend. So once again, and it should surprise nobody, except for Markel and his Merry Men, that Joe is not telling the truth.

While PSA may feel that this will give them a competitive edge over the competition and allow them to pick up their dwindling market share, it will be a huge mistake and clearly will undermine the previous 10+ years of grading. It was too late in the game to do this 5 years ago.

Anyone know if PSA has consulted with its number one fan, Dan Markel, about this change? I know that he has been busy writing his Fairy Tale on the WIWAG crime but given that he is such an important voice in the hobby I would think that they would consider his opinion on this.

There are a number of things PSA could do to prevent further loss of the market share. This is not one of those things. SGC and GAI must be wetting themselves with each mistake that PSA makes. All it does is open the door wider for them giving them more and more opportunity. PSA is the number one promoter for SGC and GAI.

As it is when you go to a show most of the dealers are now using all 3 grading services. This is a trend that has increased over the last 6 to 8 months. Dealers are there to make money. If they are now using all 3 grading services that must mean the collectors are looking beyond just buying PSA slabs.





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#335265 - 02/09/04 11:52 AM Orlando comments comical [Re: botn]
Davalillo1
Collector is an understatement.


Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 119

Offline
I have never seen a president of a company quite like Joe Orlando in my life.

Really not worth spending a lot of time on because if he is going to lie and distort thr truth and the board members with their lips closely placed next to Joe's rear all respond oh thank you so much Joe in unison then whats the use.

But Joe there is a funny thing called the truth that you conveniently choose to ignore.

1)I have a pro-PSA agenda. As a large number of serious collectors on the boards have pointed out, I have been trying to make PSA a better company by pointing out all the things you could do better. You not only do not listen--you treat it as a personal attack.
2)")Disrespectful to PSA employees and people on the boards"--this is incredible--I get slammed by your lapdogs who make up all kinds of crazy allegations and I am disrespectful for raising issues. If you had any guts you would throw them off the boards.



3)Joe knows that my stories and sources are real. He knows I know a lot of dealers, major collectors, and he knows I know the competition. Sad he has to lie.

4)This is obviously a person who is in over his head in the job.

Thanks to all the serious collectors who have defended me on the boards and with your personal e-mails--it is truly an impressive list. I appreciate your kind words. For the people with multiple identities on the boards and those who are on just to cause trouble, you got your wish. But as the serious collectors have repeatedly pointed out the boards will be a far less interesting place and collectors will be far less informed about what is really going on.

Joe has told me how much he appreciates my business and my ideas by his actions.

Thanks again to all my friends,

Jin(Davalillo)

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#335266 - 02/09/04 01:26 PM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: Davalillo1]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

Offline
Jim,

It really is not worth retorting Orlando's blatant lies. He is nothing more than a puppet. If you had 3/4ths of David Hall's arm up your a$$ making your mouth move you too would be a little grouchy.

It is really pathetic that Orlando has publicly concluded, as the largest holder of PSA slabs and one of the most valuable collections, that you would be out to sabotage PSA. What is the logic behind this demented thinking? I know that most board members hang on his every word but is it possible that he too is starting to believe his own lies?

Greg

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#335267 - 02/09/04 03:18 PM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: botn]
KLL
Hobbyist


Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 62

Offline
The three of you are about to make me puke. Why don't you take this to PSA or Network 54 board.

MW- I can't believe that you have now entered this fray. This is pathetic. This thread serves no purpose except for BOTN and Dav to pat themselves on their back. I thought for a moment that you would stand above this bs.

Dav- I hope you do use GAI. And i now take back my thought that SGC should contact you regarding your collection. Sean should give you the boot, and BOTN.

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#335268 - 02/09/04 03:49 PM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: KLL]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

Offline
KLL

Use your brainstem and skip over these threads. Nobody is forcing you to read this.

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#335269 - 02/09/04 03:55 PM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: KLL]
MW1
veteran


Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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#335270 - 02/09/04 04:47 PM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: MW1]
KLL
Hobbyist


Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 62

Offline
MW

I am glad that you have decided to be watch dog for DAV's problems.

The fact of the matter is that neither of the guys would be here if they had not been banned from PSA boards. The first time these two posted here is after they felt that they were being slighted by CU board members or after they were given the door.

The reason I expect more from you is due to the fact that you have been an active member of many forums. These two sucked you in! and I can not believe that you do not see this.

This has nothing to do with you wanting a grading service, PSA , to be a better company.

DAV and BOTN could give a rats *ss about SGC. They have nothing to contribute other than their constant b*tching and complaining. I for one thought that DAV would bring something a little more upbeat to this board. He has not. DAV and BOTN have brought their CU forum bs here and that is why CU forums are terrible.


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#335271 - 02/09/04 05:12 PM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: MW1]
Davalillo1
Collector is an understatement.


Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 119

Offline
I thought two other comments deserved mentioning before I drop this

1)First is Orlando's comments about PSA bashing. Care to cite any examples Joe--or better yet how about honestly addressing any of the issues I brought up and tell me where I am wrong. Know what--you can't

2)Secondly as you pointed out I did return your calls--I did not return your last one because you started lieing on the boards and using my name.

I would love to have an open debate with you on the issues or see Greg debate you--better yet how does it feel to have the serious collectors defend me and the idiots back you--you are in great company with people like BKAH and Kobe whose brains you couldn't fit in a thimble.

Thanks again to my many friends who have defended me. I will put their hobby knowledge and for that matter their iq up against the collective iq of the others:
I know I am leaving a lot of serious collectors out who have sent me private e-mails
expressing their support:
Marc Schoenen(Mike Schmidt
Tom PapaGoSoxBoSox)
Tipem(Vic)
Aconte
David Vargha
Griffins(Anthony)
1420 Sports
Frank Bakka
MantleFan
Jaxxr
RobE
Jay Wolt
GrilloJ
LuxuryWines
Ironranger
PurelyPSA
John Basilone
NickM
Fab4
Dave Jacobs(Stump)
Steve Novella
LuxiryWines
Couldabeena
Wolfbear
Teemu
Wayne Ellis

Buckwheat(Rob)--I respect you--I just think you are missing the point.

Dan Markel--I respect you too--we will talk soon.

Hasta La Vista,

Davalillo





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#335272 - 02/09/04 05:34 PM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: Davalillo1]
KLL
Hobbyist


Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 62

Offline
Dav

I don't think Joe Orlando reads or posts here. And I don't think that most of the members of the CU board that support you post here either.

MW

I am not surprised by BOTN's or Dav postings. I am a little bit surprised with you that you have aligned yourself with these two guys, who have no interest in the SGC forum, but only use this forum to respond to CU forum discussions/attacks. I expected a little more from you.

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#335273 - 02/09/04 05:45 PM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: KLL]
MW1
veteran


Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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#335274 - 02/09/04 06:07 PM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: MW1]
KLL
Hobbyist


Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 62

Offline
It appears that I have not explained myself. I don't care if the are right. They very well maybe right. I just don't agree with where they are posting their opinions/thoughts. They have no interest in SGC. And if they do, it is only recent interest. That is my point.

Your interest in SGC and this forum along with other members is different than DAV and BOTN. We may not agree all the time. But we are all on the same page. This board has been lowered to the same level as CU boards, which is a shame. And your participation in this bs of only makes matters worse. I am surre that some CU board members normally view our board as being above the usual squabbling that occurs over at the CU board. As of this moment, that has all changed. We have dropped to their level due to two ex CU members. You as the most visble voice in the forum and your support of their bs is irresponsible, given your stature and respect here.

Di you read Dav's most recent post. It has nothing to do with this forum! Nothing to do with SGC! If you can't see what they are doing and how you have been used, that is sad.

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#335275 - 02/09/04 06:11 PM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: MW1]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

Offline
The issues that I raise are problems that exist with PSA but affect the entire hobby. We do not exist in a vacuum.

KLL, you would have a better chance getting Orlando to tell the truth about WIWAG before Sean were to ban me from posting here. I have used this forum, in part, to share my opinion and knowledge on CU issues. I have supported SGC for many years by making submissions, selling cards in their holders and recommending their services to each of my customers.

For you to have concluded that I do not care about SGC is entirely baseless.





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#335276 - 02/09/04 06:15 PM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: MW1]
Davalillo1
Collector is an understatement.


Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 119

Offline
KLL,

You are wrong on both scores.

Dav

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#335277 - 02/09/04 06:24 PM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: botn]
KLL
Hobbyist


Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 62

Offline
Baseless?

Your posts on every imaginable forum is well documented. I would challenge you to show me a few (even 1) positive SGC posting/comment you ever made while you were still supportive of PSA/CU.

My guess would be you never did. You only started saying positive things when you started to have problems with CU/PSA or after you got banned.

I do not know that exact dates of your departure from CU, but would be bet it is pretty close to the time that you joined this forum. And I will not debate the positive comments that you have made since your arrival here.


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#335278 - 02/09/04 06:34 PM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: Davalillo1]
grilloj39
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 215
Loc: San Antonio, TX

Offline
Reading posts on the PSA board and watching several posts that are nothing more than insults and name-calling (one of the very reasons Jim was removed for), made me realize Mr Orlando was being totally disingenious in his comments.

Even though I submit my raw cards to a grading company other than PSA, I still have about 2000 PSA graded cards left in my collection. I am slowly going to begin the process of crossing over these cards to SGC and GAI. I do not see how PSA can turn itself around with the current Leadership in place. My C55, C56, and V145s will slowly be crossed over to SGC (possibly 1970 baseball as well). (The C55s and 56s do not sit straight in the PSA-mylar holders anyway). The rest will go to GAI. IMHO I consider this a personal reason as well as a long-term investment. I feel it is only a matter of time before the rest of the hobby catches up and sees the stability and accuracy of the other grading companies, versus the possible "slippery-slope" PSA may be heading for.


Edited by grilloj39 (02/09/04 06:43 PM)
_________________________
Always looking for GAI,SGC,PSA vintage Hockey and Boxing.

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#335279 - 02/09/04 07:04 PM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: KLL]
buttermarc
Collector


Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 79
Loc: NYC

Offline
Quote:

Dav

I don't think Joe Orlando reads or posts here. And I don't think that most of the members of the CU board that support you post here either.

MW

I am not surprised by BOTN's or Dav postings. I am a little bit surprised with you that you have aligned yourself with these two guys, who have no interest in the SGC forum, but only use this forum to respond to CU forum discussions/attacks. I expected a little more from you.




KLL:
You are one of the few people I don't know, but I thought I might chime in a bit here. I DO support Davalillo, and I do post here. Jim is a great collector pursuing an ambitious task. He also is an investment banker and has historically been cited by the industry's award (Institutional Investor) for his prowess in his particular field of expertise. If there is one thing that I absolutely DO trust, it is Jim's ability to analyze a company, their performance, and the competitive landscape they face in the future. Add in his passion for this hobby, and I think it is wise to listen to what he has to say.

I do think that some of Jim's posts on the CU board in the past have been presented in such a way as to maximize reaction from both collectors and PSA brass. I would also tend to believe that Jim is probably not surprised that he was banned from the PSA boards (though I have not personally asked him this question).

I personally have a majority of my collection in PSA holders these days, primarily for consistency and simplicity. I nonetheless have a number of SGC and GAI graded cards that I don't see the value in crossing over. I even have some old-holder CSA and ASA cards that I believe are authentic, unaltered and generally cool as is. I think it is important to understand what PSA is and what they have done over the past few years.

Baker and Rocchi still have a large following throughout the hobby. Add in some of the industry's top grades in Sean Drinkwater and Danny Fisher (both formerly of PSA), as well as some other experienced graders, and you have a formidable powerhouse on your hands.

It is unwise to blindly assume that PSA always acts in small collector's best interests -- and it is furthermore unwise to assume that their is no hidden agenda behind some of what they do. A good example is Charlie Merkel. He won the 2003 PSA Set Registry Awards "Best Collection of the Year" award. Though it is safe to say that he has one of the best graded card collections in the hobby, it is nonetheless important to understand the power struggle going on behind the scenes. Frustrated with PSA's inconsistent grading of some of his sets (I believe his 1954 Bowman set was a particular example), Charlie crossed over a number of his sets over to GAI, in part because of his belief in Baker and Rocchi. Charlie is one of the advanced collectors of GAI graded cards, and I know that I have sold him at least one Bowman HOF RC in GAI 9 MINT condition. Perhaps PSA just wanted to honor all that Charlie has collected in the past (independent of holder) -- but perhaps, just perhaps, they are hoping that he does not cross the rest of his collection over. I am sure that most will agree that some of Charlie's individuals sets approach values in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. I would not even begin to surmise what his entire collection is worth -- especially since he collected many sets pre-grading days, and often has a number of "backup" sets sitting around.

At any rate, I digress. Jim is one of the hobby's good guys, and he is often trying to challenge PSA to be the best company it can be, serving many collectors in the best way possible. There have been some serious concerns about PSA's service in the past eighteen months, concerns that are important to be brought out, debated and discussed in a public forum.

MS
_________________________
"It is not the critic who counts..."

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#335280 - 02/09/04 07:12 PM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: buttermarc]
MW1
veteran


Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

Offline
Marc,

Great post!

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#335281 - 02/09/04 07:14 PM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: KLL]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

Offline
KLL

Yes, baseless.

With the exception of one thread I started where I was upset with SGC in their handling of the review of two cards, I have never made a negative post about SGC. In fact, when able I always publicly praised their services. I was one of the few PSA Authorized Dealers, possibly the only, who had decided to use their service very early on. In fact it was well before BMW ever considered submitting cards to them.

Since you seem to understand the hobby from afar or from what you hear from others, you should probably know that PSA, and now CU, has never been too thrilled when their Authorized Dealers used a competitor’s service. At times you could even say that ultimatums were given.



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#335282 - 02/09/04 07:26 PM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: buttermarc]
Davalillo1
Collector is an understatement.


Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 119

Offline
Marc,

Outstanding post....and of course, many thanks. This post belongs on the psa board--go ahead and do it. Lets talk soon.

Jim

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#335283 - 02/09/04 07:32 PM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: botn]
grilloj39
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 215
Loc: San Antonio, TX

Offline
MW...I can't say in all honesty whether you are right or wrong in regards to the perceptions of some about GAI. All I can do is simply relate my own experiences. I am a collector who seldom sells cards. I would rather trade then sell.

As a non-large-dealer, my experiences with GAI have been great. I have made 7 separate submission since Jun 2003. While I do not expect the same service (or pricing) as someone who submits 2000+ cards on their invoices, Mike and Danny have always been kind, receptive, and provide great customer service.

If the perceptions of some are true, then it must be Danny and Mike have a soft-spot in their heart for ex-military folk like me, otherwise I must be one lucky SOB.
_________________________
Always looking for GAI,SGC,PSA vintage Hockey and Boxing.

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#335284 - 02/09/04 07:43 PM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: grilloj39]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

Offline
I have not witnessed or experienced GAI playing favorites with any dealers or collectors. An argument could be made that they may have been a ½ grade more liberal in the beginning but this phenomena has not existed for 18 months or so. I am sure that the politicking exists but GAI is not in a position to be handing out grades to anyone. In fact most of us who use their services have been given explicit permission/orders to buy back, on their behalf, any card that they graded that is an eyesore.

This is an entirely different MO than what employed while Baker and Rocchi were employees of PSA and CU. Same two guys, different results.

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#335285 - 02/09/04 07:53 PM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: grilloj39]
jackstraw
Talkative?


Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 744
Loc: @ a Baseball Card Show

Offline
well you have my support jim! go get um! remember its only going to hurt if you hit them in the wallet! take food off their table and i bet they will want to talk to you!

john
_________________________
Ken Griffey Jr

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#335286 - 02/09/04 08:03 PM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: jackstraw]
Basilone
If I just sell the car, I can up my bid...


Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 166

Offline

Jim has the support of a number of us "guys across the street".....it is my hope (and many others) that cooler heads will prevail and Jim and Joe can get together and come to some sort of resolution in a professional and timely matter.

John Basilone

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#335287 - 02/09/04 08:41 PM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: Basilone]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

Offline
I agree with John Basilone.

While in the end my preference of grading companies
is Sgc, I support Jim as a Psa collector. Maybe it is time to move on and complete
various sets in Psa holders and start new ones in other company holders
such as Sgc or Gai or both.

Good luck and happy collecting!

aconte
_________________________

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#335288 - 02/10/04 06:08 AM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: aconte]
grilloj39
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 215
Loc: San Antonio, TX

Offline
While I am dismayed with the antics of the PSA President, I would like to add that in the long run, I would like to see Jim and PSA work issues out for the benefit of a fellow collector. I think it's best for the hobby when 3 reputable major grading companies can co-exist peacefully. Realizing an arena of business competition is going to exist among the three, I do not feel it is necessary for that level of competition to transcend downward to hobbyists.

Mr Orlando has been successful in alienating many of his customers within the hobby, creating an US against THEM attitude, that only serves to his benefit (and the detriment of hobbyists in the long run) IMO.

If Mr Orlando wants to fire back, then do so in a constructive way that serves us all. For example, lower prices, simple submission procedures, better (secure) holder, half-point grading, better customer service, answer WIWAG questions, etc. His competitors will follow suit and will be "chalked up" as an improvement in grading services.

Good luck Jim and whatever you decide, I hope things work out for the better.
_________________________
Always looking for GAI,SGC,PSA vintage Hockey and Boxing.

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#335289 - 02/10/04 06:39 AM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: grilloj39]
KLL
Hobbyist


Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 62

Offline
BOTN

You are full of it. Again, show me one thread any where on the internet that you authored that shows SGC in a positive light.

I will bet that there are no postings any forum prior to your problems with CU.

Answer the question and PROVE ME WRONG! With your investigative ability, this should be a snap.

You are just using this forum to further your own agenda.

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#335290 - 02/10/04 06:54 AM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: KLL]
Davalillo1
Collector is an understatement.


Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 119

Offline
KLL,

I will start with something positive. I have heard good things from several serious collectors/dealers about the quality of SGC grading.

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#335291 - 02/10/04 06:56 AM Re: Orlando comments comical [Re: KLL]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

Offline
KLL, with all due respect, you are out of line.

Is there any more positive light that SELLING SGC product? Have you looked at botn's website and examined his inventory?

As far as attacks, etc...you seem to be at the head of the class. A rather standard method of operation for an anonamous poster.


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