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#338502 - 02/11/04 07:35 PM What about sheet-cut cards?
MW1
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How do other forum members feel about sheet-cut cards -- i.e., cards cut from sheets after the fact. We all know that several of the major grading companies have encapsulated them...so what is the future for these post-factory creations? Will they eventually be recognized as non-legit dealer creations of limited value or will some collectors continue to accept them as high grade scarcities? Is it also possible that eBay provides the perfect conduit for the commerce of sheet cut cards due to the inability of buyers to closely inspect merchandise before bidding? Thoughts?
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#338503 - 02/11/04 07:53 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: MW1]
jackstraw
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i would not be surprised if you see in the near future a grading company encapsulating the cards with the designation of "non factory cut"? i would say then that they will have some value.the gretzky,messier,bourque and the such will hold some value and in turn bump the originals value.
i could be wrong?
they are still originals but were not cut at the factory so yes they have some value but its close to impossible to tell the difference from a non factory cut card and a card that was trimmed.
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#338504 - 02/11/04 07:53 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: MW1]
buttermarc
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Quote:

How do other forum members feel about sheet-cut cards -- i.e., cards cut from sheets after the fact. We all know that several of the major grading companies have encapsulated them...so what is the future for these post-factory creations? Will they eventually be recognized as non-legit dealer creations of limited value or will some collectors continue to accept them as high grade scarcities? Is it also possible that eBay provides the perfect conduit for the commerce of sheet cut cards due to the inability of buyers to closely inspect merchandize before bidding? Thoughts?





I have seen every grading company encapsulate sheet-cut cards at one time or another. That being said, there is one particularly egregious grading card company that has seemingly graded thousands of sheet-cut cards. That they are not labelled as such annoys and disturbs me greatly. I have happily seen their value decline over time.

As for ebay, I think there are some tell-tale signs of sheet cut cards, and I simply do not have enough experience with ungraded cards on Ebay to know if sheet-cut cards will be any worse than raw trimmed/re-colored, etc. cards that make their way through Ebay.

I think some sets, like 1984 Nestle, should be encapsulated by all major grading companies. As it was never released but on a full sheet, collectors [should be] generally aware that a card was sheet cut from this set. Indeed, some of the grading card companies do grade these cards.

Finally, perhaps there is a small "value" to some sheet-cut cards. For example, I have a 1974 OPC Schmidt sheet cut card. What it provides for me is an 'ideal' of what a Schmidt card from that set could theoretically look like. Obviously, my personal experience with the issue is that
a) it is hard to find. Many, many times scarcer than Topps
b) centering generally sucks across the board
c) rough cuts are very much the norm
d) The print problems on the 1974 Topps Schmidt are not generally evident on the OPC version.

So, I am happy to own the sheet-cut Schmidt just so that I could see what something could have looked like, had situations been different. That being said, I purchased that card over 2 1/2 years ago, before it was clear where all these vintage, high-grade OPC baseball cards were coming from. Alas, one of my greatest lessons learned.
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#338505 - 02/11/04 08:04 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: buttermarc]
MW1
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Marc,

Good post...and a follow-up question. If a grading company does not label a sheet-cut card as such should the person who is selling it be required to disclose the fact that it is allegedly sheet-cut? Opinions?

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#338506 - 02/11/04 08:09 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: MW1]
jackstraw
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in a perfect world yes they should! won't happen anytime soon?
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#338507 - 02/11/04 08:37 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: buttermarc]
MW1
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On a semi-related tangent...the odd thing about 1960s and 1970s O-Pee-Chee baseball is that some years are definitely in shorter supply than other years. For instance, I've probably seen more Mint condition 1973 O-Pee-Chee Mike Schmidts than 1973 Topps Mike Schmidts (which is probably due in part to the Topps multiple-series issue), but for 1974, those figures would be reversed. Other years like 1966 and 1981 also seem to be tougher.
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#338508 - 02/11/04 08:55 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: MW1]
buttermarc
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Quote:

Marc,

Good post...and a follow-up question. If a grading company does not label a sheet-cut card as such should the person who is selling it be required to disclose the fact that it is allegedly sheet-cut? Opinions?




Failure to disclose is just as dishonest as a seller auctioning off a PRO-graded card that he or she knows is trimmed. There may be a bit of a differential between a collector who does not necessarily know the card is trimmed (more often the case with Topps than OPC issues....) as opposed to the dealers (there are at least two that come to mind...) who actually do the trimming and submitting.
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#338509 - 02/11/04 08:58 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: MW1]
jackstraw
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o pee chee was on strike in 80 81. thats why the baseball and hockey issues seem in shorter supply, while un cut sheets are plentiful.this would explain the abundance of 80 and 81 gem mint grades from bgs?
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#338510 - 02/11/04 08:58 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: buttermarc]
MW1
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#338511 - 02/11/04 08:59 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: MW1]
buttermarc
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Quote:

On a semi-related tangent...the odd thing about 1960s and 1970s O-Pee-Chee baseball is that some years are definitely in shorter supply than other years. For instance, I've probably seen more Mint condition 1973 O-Pee-Chee Mike Schmidts than 1973 Topps Mike Schmidts (which is probably due in part to the Topps multiple-series issue), but for 1974, those figures would be reversed. Other years like 1966 and 1981 also seem to be tougher.




MW:

Interesting point. From a population perspective, the Topps is actually 3x more prevalent than the O-Pee-Chee version. And I don't think that that number is distorted because of re-submissions. Almost every major collector I know owns the Topps Schmidt rookie in 9 -- but very few seemed to be interested in that pesky issue with the French on it.

You definitely are correct that the Topps Hi-Series is relatively tough to find, whereas the OPC was distributed all in one series.

As for OPC, I would also say that 1980 often is a more difficult issue than people realize. 1976 can be a monster, too. In fact, I think 1976 is the toughest OPC issue from the 1970s (though I don't follow 1971s), though that may have been mitigated somewhat by some unopened that has surfaced. 1981 is very hard, as you said, complicated even more by the grey and white back variations.

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#338512 - 02/11/04 09:00 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: jackstraw]
MW1
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Bouffard,

Maybe.

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#338513 - 02/11/04 09:02 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: buttermarc]
MW1
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Marc,

You're right about 1976 OPC's. Tough year...definitely in shorter supply than either of the years surrounding it.

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#338514 - 02/11/04 09:06 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: buttermarc]
MW1
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Quote:

From a population perspective, the Topps is actually 3x more prevalent than the O-Pee-Chee version.



Perhaps...but how many have you seen that would actually qualify as strict Mint condition with a perfect reverse? Probably only the examples from the factory sets, I bet.

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#338515 - 02/12/04 10:05 AM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: buttermarc]
deadlyembrace
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Quote:

I have seen every grading company encapsulate sheet-cut cards at one time or another. That being said, there is one particularly egregious grading card company that has seemingly graded thousands of sheet-cut cards. That they are not labelled as such annoys and disturbs me greatly. I have happily seen their value decline over time.




We've had the "sheet cut" discussion before, here in the SGC forum, but I was left with more questions than answers. Perhaps I'm not a purist, but I've not yet heard solid reasons that justify a bias against the practice.

As I recall from the earlier thread, the best reason to consider a sheet cut card as something less than authentic is because it has not survived the test of time as a singleton. There has been no opportunity for it to become bent, spindled or multilated.

That argument ignores the fact that a genuine card (... from the 1960's, let's say ...), in pristine condition, can potentially exist ... it just happens to be embedded in a sheet. The fact that it was "protected" in the time since its manufacture, by virtue of being part of a sheet, seems beside the point. It's still real, and it has the potential to become a high quality single card via sheet cutting.

Seems reasonable to me ...

But, I'd like to be educated on the topic. Let fly ...

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#338516 - 02/12/04 10:16 AM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: deadlyembrace]
grilloj39
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In all honesty, I do not know what side of the fence I am on in regards to sheet-cut cards...but I would maybe lean on the side of being "against the practice."

As a hockey collector, part of the challenge of receiving a high-grade OPC card was the fact that some of the cards were cut clean, versus the rough-edges as a result of wire-cutting. So not only did the card have to withstand factory cutting issues, but also collector-care as well.

A sheet card OPC card in a graded slab is nothing more than a "cheap shortcut" in regards to the challenges stated above.

The bottom line is that there is a tendency in thinking that a high-grade vintage card is simply based on "collector care." But luck should also be a factor in high grade vintage cards, as far as factory-cutting, handling is concerned IMHO.

Grillo
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#338517 - 02/12/04 06:48 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: deadlyembrace]
MW1
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Quote:

Quote:

I have seen every grading company encapsulate sheet-cut cards at one time or another. That being said, there is one particularly egregious grading card company that has seemingly graded thousands of sheet-cut cards. That they are not labelled as such annoys and disturbs me greatly. I have happily seen their value decline over time.




We've had the "sheet cut" discussion before, here in the SGC forum, but I was left with more questions than answers. Perhaps I'm not a purist, but I've not yet heard solid reasons that justify a bias against the practice.

As I recall from the earlier thread, the best reason to consider a sheet cut card as something less than authentic is because it has not survived the test of time as a singleton. There has been no opportunity for it to become bent, spindled or multilated.

That argument ignores the fact that a genuine card (... from the 1960's, let's say ...), in pristine condition, can potentially exist ... it just happens to be embedded in a sheet. The fact that it was "protected" in the time since its manufacture, by virtue of being part of a sheet, seems beside the point. It's still real, and it has the potential to become a high quality single card via sheet cutting.

Seems reasonable to me ...

But, I'd like to be educated on the topic. Let fly ...




Mark,

Do you feel there is a difference between cards that have been cut from sheets and oversized cards that have been cut down? (assuming similar cutting methods are used). If not, how about vintage cards that are part of a three or four card panel or a partial advertising sheet?

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#338518 - 02/12/04 11:16 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: MW1]
MW1
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Follow-up.

I'd be interested in hearing others' opinions on this last question too.

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#338519 - 02/13/04 01:35 AM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: MW1]
botn
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My feelings about this are pretty clear. A card that is trimmed to give the appearance of being in higher grade is the same as a card that was cut off of a sheet post-production. The purest in me feels that any cutting (alteration) made to a card after being issued from the factory, with the exception of cards that were supposed to be cut off by consumers, negates the originality of the card.

At that point where do you draw the line as to what is acceptable to do to a card once it leaves the factory?

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#338520 - 02/13/04 07:39 AM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: botn]
estang
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In our earlier discussion on this thread I conveyed that I likely have a 1975 and 1978 BVG 8.5 sheet-cuts that I purchased off of ebay. I'm not saying they are, just speculation based upon the way they look and the reputation that BVG has on the subject. Plus the ebay seller seems to have a slew of very high-end BVG/BGS. If you PM me, I'll tell you who.

It seems that Beckett will put a lower surface grade on a suspected cut sheet, thus knocking the grade down as a way to off-set it the gem mint centering, edges/corners that are accomplished through laser cutting techniques. So even though they encapsulate the cards they indirectly indicate the sheet cut. Why they do this to the surface sub-grade as opposed to the edges sub-grade seems strange. Or is there something wrong with the surface (I don't see it).

I still hold true that I like the cards just as much if they were cut from the factory. The added benefit is that I believe the purchase prices were very good in comparison to what would be a 9, because these cards look like an easy 9 or Gem Mint 10s. I'm not looking to re-sell them and it doesn't bother me.

Hostess cards are graded by all companies when cut from their panels, and there's no special designation on those. I've often wondered what type of stnadards are put on those. I mean what if you cut the cards out with special patterned scissors but the dotted lines were clearly untouched; woud they grade the same or if you cut them out an angle. I think a policy statement on the subject by each grading company is should be known.



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#338521 - 02/13/04 08:57 AM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: estang]
MW1
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Quote:

I've often wondered what type of stnadards are put on those. I mean what if you cut the cards out with special patterned scissors but the dotted lines were clearly untouched; woud they grade the same or if you cut them out an angle. I think a policy statement on the subject by each grading company is should be known.



Estang,

Good question....and I think the same applies to other strip or box cut cards as well.

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#338522 - 02/13/04 12:22 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: MW1]
Captain_Pike
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I only collect modern baseball cards (Bowman Chrome products)...sheet cut cards are really not a problem.
Regarding (70s and 80s) OPC uncut sheets, I still consider these sheet cut cards legitimate.
Someone on another MB posted a possible scenario...Topps would purchase ALL of OPC's inventory of vintage uncut sheets. Cut them to size and insert the VINTAGE cards into MODERN Topps products (i.e. Topps Heritage).
Would any VINTAGE collector consider these cards as TRIMMED?



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#338523 - 02/13/04 03:17 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: Captain_Pike]
MW1
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Quote:

Someone on another MB posted a possible scenario...Topps would purchase ALL of OPC's inventory of vintage uncut sheets. Cut them to size and insert the VINTAGE cards into MODERN Topps products (i.e. Topps Heritage).

Would any VINTAGE collector consider these cards as TRIMMED?



I understand what you're arguing here, but I'm not sure this is a realistic scenario. First, I don't think a major manufacturer would do this (generally, they accumulate vintage cards through a buyback policy) and second, O-Pee-Chee (I believe) is no longer in business. Their inventory of uncut sheets has already been disseminated throughout the hobby. I suppose a company could attempt to purchase uncut sheets on the secondary market and chop them up, but I don't think hobbyists would view this process as beneficial to the hobby. But who knows? Maybe collectors of modern cards are somewhat more likely to accept sheet cut cards than vintage collectors.

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#338524 - 02/13/04 04:39 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: MW1]
MW1
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The perfect example of what we've been discussing:

Link to eBay auction - Gem Mint 1979-80 O-Pee-Chee Gretzky

How do others view this card? It would seem from the price that the seller is trying to convey the thought that this card is just as legitimate as a card from a wax box. From my experience, I can tell you that factory issued 1979-80 O-Pee-Chee Gretzkys in Gem Mint condition with perfect edges simply do not exist. I've seen quite a few of these over the years (thousands) and I'm familiar with both the first and second printings. Yes, some OPC Gretzky rookies have more of a smooth cut than others, but no factory issued card has perfect edges -- at least none that I have seen.

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#338525 - 02/13/04 05:18 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: MW1]
jackstraw
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i have seen a few hundred myself and never seen one that sharp and perfectly centered to boot i for one can't believe that beckett doesn't know that this stuff is going on and they still do nothing about it? mw you got that kind coin? if so tell him you will give him 75,000 if it grades an sgc 98
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#338526 - 02/13/04 05:35 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: jackstraw]
Captain_Pike
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I remember D&A selling the BGS9.5 Gretzky RC (BGS holder, BVG serial number), but I can't recall the amount?
Whether the Gretzky RC is from a pack/sheet-cut...I would have to examine the card in person.
It's a nice card

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#338527 - 02/13/04 05:46 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: Captain_Pike]
MW1
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I believe at one time that either D&A or the person who "found" the card made a claim that the card came from a wax pack. Later, they backed off of the claim. One way to tell the pack issued varieties from those that were removed from a sheet is by examining the blue portion of the card (only pertinent to the OPC cards with smoother cuts). On the pack issued varieties, there is a slight after image that extends slightly above and slightly below the white stripe on the right side of the card. If I get a chance, I'll post an image of what I'm talking about.
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#338528 - 02/13/04 05:52 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: Captain_Pike]
MW1
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Not to be too critical, but take a look at the centering on the BVG 9.5 Gretzky. I know from experience that Beckett is pretty strict with respect to BOTH the front and back centering. Isn't this card pretty close to 70/30 on the reverse? The 9.5 centering subgrade doesn't seem to make sense. Comments?
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#338529 - 02/13/04 06:25 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: MW1]
grilloj39
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MW...I believe the Beckett requirements for centering on a 9.5 card is as follows:

50/50 one side on front
55/45 one side on front (or better)

60/40 on the back.

In examining the card, it looks too close to call. But I don't have the greatest eyesight in the world to begin with. But centering on this card would be the least of my concerns. Any 9.5 OPC card arouses my suspicion immediately. Those edges are just too sharp for an OPC card. I've never seen an OPC card as sharp as that one.

Edited: I know he's asking a ridiculous price, but let's say for fun the card is not sheet cut and he was offering it for 1/5 of the asking price (20K). I'd rather have your Vezina card over the modern Gretzky for the same price.

I have dreams about that card....hmmm, vezina, hmmm, burger!


Edited by grilloj39 (02/13/04 06:31 PM)
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#338530 - 02/13/04 06:44 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: grilloj39]
aconte
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Grilloj39,

I think 20k would be a ridiculous price. Even if that card we not sheet
cut, would there be that much of a difference to an 8.5? You could buy
a lot of nice vintage with the leftover $$$.

I'd like to see the scans that MW1 is refering to that can help spotting the
different versions.

aconte
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#338531 - 02/13/04 06:50 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: aconte]
jackstraw
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i still love that joliet postcard!come on mw show us that picture.
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#338532 - 02/13/04 06:52 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: grilloj39]
MW1
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Here's what I think. There appear to be enough collectors out there that accept the phenomenon of the graded, sheet-cut card. The problem, I believe, lies in trying to associate the value of a factory issued card with one that has been removed from a complete sheet after the fact. It would seem to me that the most equitable and reasonable solution would be for grading companies that choose to grade sheet cut cards (that do not ordinarily exist only in that state) to specify that they are "sheet cut" on their holders. That way, collectors can knowingly decide for themselves how much money they're willing to pay for each. In other words, I think it's important to distinguish between the two and make collectors aware of this difference -- let the market dictate the true price.


Quote:

I have dreams about that card....hmmm, vezina, hmmm, burger!






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#338533 - 02/13/04 07:14 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: jackstraw]
MW1
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Quote:

i still love that joliet postcard!come on mw show us that picture.



Same picture of Aurel Joliat as on his 1936-37 O-Pee-Chee Series D card (both pictured below):






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#338534 - 02/13/04 08:53 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: aconte]
MW1
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Quote:

Grilloj39,

I think 20k would be a ridiculous price. Even if that card we not sheet
cut, would there be that much of a difference to an 8.5? You could buy
a lot of nice vintage with the leftover $$$.

I'd like to see the scans that MW1 is refering to that can help spotting the
different versions.

aconte




Here are the scans. The first image represents one of the nicest factory issued Gretzky rookies I've been able to find in the last five years. The second image is a close-up of one of the areas of the card that possesses the after image I spoke of. Note that although this card has three relatively "smooth" edges, the top edge still has a rough cut.




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#338535 - 02/14/04 06:03 AM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: MW1]
Captain_Pike
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Very nice!!
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#338536 - 02/14/04 06:31 AM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: Captain_Pike]
grilloj39
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MW...thanks for the scans. Those are some of the best hockey cards on the planet! Again, the BGS 9.5 OPC Gretzky card is just too sharp for it to be a factory-cut card IMHO.
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#338537 - 02/14/04 07:01 AM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: grilloj39]
jackstraw
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since we have a hockey fan do you have a picture of the plante rookie sgc 92?
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#338538 - 02/15/04 05:36 AM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: MW1]
Basilone
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Regarding the Gretzky BGS (BVG) 9.5. I spoke with Adam from Dave & Adams on the phone regarding this card. The story goes that the guy opened a box of cards at D&A's table. He left with the card and returned the next day asking for it to be graded using BGS rather than BVG criteria because he was so confident in the card. No one can be sure that the guy came back with the SAME Gretzky RC that he opened up the day before. I asked Adam if he would state his reputation on it and he said he couldnt.

John

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