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#338512 - 02/11/04 09:00 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: jackstraw]
MW1
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Bouffard,

Maybe.

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#338513 - 02/11/04 09:02 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: buttermarc]
MW1
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Marc,

You're right about 1976 OPC's. Tough year...definitely in shorter supply than either of the years surrounding it.

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#338514 - 02/11/04 09:06 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: buttermarc]
MW1
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Quote:

From a population perspective, the Topps is actually 3x more prevalent than the O-Pee-Chee version.



Perhaps...but how many have you seen that would actually qualify as strict Mint condition with a perfect reverse? Probably only the examples from the factory sets, I bet.

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#338515 - 02/12/04 10:05 AM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: buttermarc]
deadlyembrace
The Venus Card Trap


Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 596
Loc: Austin, TX

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Quote:

I have seen every grading company encapsulate sheet-cut cards at one time or another. That being said, there is one particularly egregious grading card company that has seemingly graded thousands of sheet-cut cards. That they are not labelled as such annoys and disturbs me greatly. I have happily seen their value decline over time.




We've had the "sheet cut" discussion before, here in the SGC forum, but I was left with more questions than answers. Perhaps I'm not a purist, but I've not yet heard solid reasons that justify a bias against the practice.

As I recall from the earlier thread, the best reason to consider a sheet cut card as something less than authentic is because it has not survived the test of time as a singleton. There has been no opportunity for it to become bent, spindled or multilated.

That argument ignores the fact that a genuine card (... from the 1960's, let's say ...), in pristine condition, can potentially exist ... it just happens to be embedded in a sheet. The fact that it was "protected" in the time since its manufacture, by virtue of being part of a sheet, seems beside the point. It's still real, and it has the potential to become a high quality single card via sheet cutting.

Seems reasonable to me ...

But, I'd like to be educated on the topic. Let fly ...

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#338516 - 02/12/04 10:16 AM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: deadlyembrace]
grilloj39
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 215
Loc: San Antonio, TX

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In all honesty, I do not know what side of the fence I am on in regards to sheet-cut cards...but I would maybe lean on the side of being "against the practice."

As a hockey collector, part of the challenge of receiving a high-grade OPC card was the fact that some of the cards were cut clean, versus the rough-edges as a result of wire-cutting. So not only did the card have to withstand factory cutting issues, but also collector-care as well.

A sheet card OPC card in a graded slab is nothing more than a "cheap shortcut" in regards to the challenges stated above.

The bottom line is that there is a tendency in thinking that a high-grade vintage card is simply based on "collector care." But luck should also be a factor in high grade vintage cards, as far as factory-cutting, handling is concerned IMHO.

Grillo
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Always looking for GAI,SGC,PSA vintage Hockey and Boxing.

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#338517 - 02/12/04 06:48 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: deadlyembrace]
MW1
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Quote:

Quote:

I have seen every grading company encapsulate sheet-cut cards at one time or another. That being said, there is one particularly egregious grading card company that has seemingly graded thousands of sheet-cut cards. That they are not labelled as such annoys and disturbs me greatly. I have happily seen their value decline over time.




We've had the "sheet cut" discussion before, here in the SGC forum, but I was left with more questions than answers. Perhaps I'm not a purist, but I've not yet heard solid reasons that justify a bias against the practice.

As I recall from the earlier thread, the best reason to consider a sheet cut card as something less than authentic is because it has not survived the test of time as a singleton. There has been no opportunity for it to become bent, spindled or multilated.

That argument ignores the fact that a genuine card (... from the 1960's, let's say ...), in pristine condition, can potentially exist ... it just happens to be embedded in a sheet. The fact that it was "protected" in the time since its manufacture, by virtue of being part of a sheet, seems beside the point. It's still real, and it has the potential to become a high quality single card via sheet cutting.

Seems reasonable to me ...

But, I'd like to be educated on the topic. Let fly ...




Mark,

Do you feel there is a difference between cards that have been cut from sheets and oversized cards that have been cut down? (assuming similar cutting methods are used). If not, how about vintage cards that are part of a three or four card panel or a partial advertising sheet?

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#338518 - 02/12/04 11:16 PM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: MW1]
MW1
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Follow-up.

I'd be interested in hearing others' opinions on this last question too.

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#338519 - 02/13/04 01:35 AM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: MW1]
botn
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Santa Monica, CA

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My feelings about this are pretty clear. A card that is trimmed to give the appearance of being in higher grade is the same as a card that was cut off of a sheet post-production. The purest in me feels that any cutting (alteration) made to a card after being issued from the factory, with the exception of cards that were supposed to be cut off by consumers, negates the originality of the card.

At that point where do you draw the line as to what is acceptable to do to a card once it leaves the factory?

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#338520 - 02/13/04 07:39 AM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: botn]
estang
(S)uper Collector


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 495

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In our earlier discussion on this thread I conveyed that I likely have a 1975 and 1978 BVG 8.5 sheet-cuts that I purchased off of ebay. I'm not saying they are, just speculation based upon the way they look and the reputation that BVG has on the subject. Plus the ebay seller seems to have a slew of very high-end BVG/BGS. If you PM me, I'll tell you who.

It seems that Beckett will put a lower surface grade on a suspected cut sheet, thus knocking the grade down as a way to off-set it the gem mint centering, edges/corners that are accomplished through laser cutting techniques. So even though they encapsulate the cards they indirectly indicate the sheet cut. Why they do this to the surface sub-grade as opposed to the edges sub-grade seems strange. Or is there something wrong with the surface (I don't see it).

I still hold true that I like the cards just as much if they were cut from the factory. The added benefit is that I believe the purchase prices were very good in comparison to what would be a 9, because these cards look like an easy 9 or Gem Mint 10s. I'm not looking to re-sell them and it doesn't bother me.

Hostess cards are graded by all companies when cut from their panels, and there's no special designation on those. I've often wondered what type of stnadards are put on those. I mean what if you cut the cards out with special patterned scissors but the dotted lines were clearly untouched; woud they grade the same or if you cut them out an angle. I think a policy statement on the subject by each grading company is should be known.



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Enjoy Your Collection & SKOL VIKINGS!

Erik

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#338521 - 02/13/04 08:57 AM Re: What about sheet-cut cards? [Re: estang]
MW1
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Quote:

I've often wondered what type of stnadards are put on those. I mean what if you cut the cards out with special patterned scissors but the dotted lines were clearly untouched; woud they grade the same or if you cut them out an angle. I think a policy statement on the subject by each grading company is should be known.



Estang,

Good question....and I think the same applies to other strip or box cut cards as well.

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