#36231 - 12/10/02 07:23 AM
Pete Rose in hof?
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remo
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Registered: 08/29/02
Posts: 92
Loc: washington state
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what are your thoughts on this? personally i think he should be there but not allowed to have any major league baseball job. the hall is for on the field performance and he was on of the best of all time and should be in the hall.
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#36232 - 12/10/02 08:39 AM
Re: Pete Rose in hof?
[Re: remo]
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murph0
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He should be in the HoF no doubt. It's [!@#%^&^] that he's getting negative selective treatment.
Brian
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#36234 - 12/10/02 03:14 PM
Re: Pete Rose in hof?
[Re: remo]
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Anonymous
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No doubt....Its just stupid that he is not in the Hall. Same with Shoeless Joe. I think Rose is a putz, but so were a lot of HOFers. Its not about character, its about performance otherwise they might as well kick Ty Cobb out.....
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#36235 - 12/13/02 05:20 AM
Re: Pete Rose in hof?
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Anonymous
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I agree that Pete Rose deserves to be in the HOF, but he should take a ticket and wait in line behind Shoeless Joe. Certainly a HOF that lacks recognition for the player who garnered the most hits is creating a large void.
Despite possibly betting on baseball, and signing a contract for a 'lifetime ban', certainly baseball fans have forgiven Rose. I believe the majority of baseball fans of today are unaware of the impact that Joe Jackson had in his era, and the exact nature of his 'baseball crimes'. If Jackson were alive today to put a public face on the claim, he would receive as much, if not more, consideration for reinstatment as Pete Rose.
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#36236 - 01/07/03 02:24 AM
Re: Pete Rose in hof?
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Anonymous
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Without a doubt.!! Despite the charges, he was one of the best.!!
Just had a thought based on my statement above. How does O.J. fit into the same scenario.?  ** NEVER MIND.... DUMB QUESTION.!! **
Edited by Hambone (01/07/03 02:27 AM)
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#36237 - 01/10/03 12:27 PM
Re: Pete Rose in hof?
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Anonymous
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O.J belongs in the Hall of Fame. So hes a piece of shlt......so was Ty Cobb,and Rose really isnt that much better than either of them(except for the whole grizzly murder thing). Its all about performance ON the field otherwise dont WE ALL have a shot at the Hall????? Think about it.... 
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#36238 - 01/10/03 12:32 PM
Re: Pete Rose in hof?
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vayank
The Amazing Card-Man
Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va
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Dungeon,
I agree. I hate it when HOF credentials become clouded with people posturing and trying to be superior. Pete Rose was a HOFer and he paid terrible price for whhatever he did. The man spent time in jail. He played his heart on the field -- Fay Vincent is a big fat moralistic toad.
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----
Matthew T. Natale
Alexandria, Virginia
Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89
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#36239 - 01/10/03 12:45 PM
Re: Pete Rose in hof?
[Re: vayank]
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Anonymous
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I dont know....I was kinda thinking of how nice it would be if I were inducted into the Hall for my outstanding behavior off the field! My Mom would be so proud! 
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#36240 - 01/31/03 02:13 AM
Re: Pete Rose in hof?
[Re: remo]
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vic6string
The Collectinator
Registered: 04/25/02
Posts: 366
Loc: Miami, Florida
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Okay, time to go with the unpopular answer... No HOF vote from me. There is only one rule that gets you banned for life from the sport. It is not a new rule. It is not an unwritten rule. It is posted in every major league locker room in the country. It was not a surprise to Rose when they mentioned the lifetime ban. They didn't create the rule just for him. Sure, drug use is bad. So is murder. So is any crime...I should know being a corrections officer. But none of those things have the potential to ruin the sport like betting. Even if you are betting on your own team to win. If Rose the manager bet on tomorrow's game but not today's game, don't you think that would affect the way he coaches the two? Would he put in the closer today knowing he needs him tomorrow? Would he start a pitcher on too little rest if the stakes were high enough? Maybe he would rest his shortstop today because he wants to be sure he is okay for tomorrow. It casts a shadow on every decision he made as a manager. If people even begin to think that games might be fixed, the sport will die. Boxing is not nearly as popular as it used to be, and part of it is that many people feel that the fights are rigged. Even if they aren't, just the thought that they might be is enough. Pete Rose knew the rules, knew the consequences, and broke the rules anyway. To top it off, he has shown no remorse, and keeps doing it. The latest reports of him gambling in Vegas sports books recently goes to show that he is not even willing to try to make himself look better. No, he did nothing illegal, but why would he bet in a sports book at a time when he is again being considered for entry. It's like being on probation and going to your probation officer's house with a beer in one hand and a gun in the other. I feel bad for Rose. He has a problem. I hope someday he can beat his gambling addiction. His records are in the hall of fame. The numbers all count. But the man is where he should be: on the outside looking in.
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#36241 - 01/31/03 02:48 AM
It's a tough call
[Re: vic6string]
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MW1
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Registered: 07/30/02
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Finally...an issue where I'm still undecided.
I agree that Rose's stats should warrant immediate HOF induction. I'm old enough to have seen him in his prime, and to me, he had few contemporaries -- just like many other greats of the game -- Anson, Cobb, Ruth, Paige, Williams, DiMaggio, Mantle, etc. Yes; the championships, the batting titles, the unabandoned style of play, the longevity and the most hits in baseball history put him in that class.
And yet, how are we to judge his extra-curricular activities? Is it even right to do so and to assign so much weight to them compared to his on-the-field prowess? Or was Joe Morgan right when he said that it was only a matter of time after Rose ended his career that he would self-destruct? But then there's the argument about all those players, many of them high-level Hall of Famers, who were either brazen racists, petty thieves, infamous womanizers, unconscionable brawlers, compulsive drunks or gamblers, or even alleged murderers. What of them?
It's a convincing argument, to be sure, but shouldn't basic Hall of Fame requirements be partially determined by a player's contemporaries? Is it right for baseball historians to retrospectively impose such qualifications on all those who have come before a questionable inductee -- using that individual's moral compass as an ex post facto measure of worthiness? Quite often, I feel that this is the true test --does a player stand up to the standards of the current day? Was he that much better than those he played against? Were his off-the-field transgressions any worse than other, compelling Hall of Fame candidates who shared the same diamond? Ultimately, baseball rules stipulate that there has to be some accountability. So how are we to measure it, and not rewrite history in the process, if not by contemporary standards?
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#36243 - 01/31/03 08:50 AM
Re: Rose should be in HOF
[Re: estang]
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vic6string
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Registered: 04/25/02
Posts: 366
Loc: Miami, Florida
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I am with you on this one. I hate when people talk about him in the same circles as Ruth and Cobb and Mays. They look at the hits record and automatically assume he belongs in that class. He was an average fielder at best, and while he was one of the best hitters (or should I say singles hitters) in the game for 15 years, the last 5 years of his career he was mediocre at best, only playing for the record. In fact, had he not been a player manager towards the end, he might not have ever gotten the at-bats to break the record. He had no power, wasn't a good base stealer, never drove in more than 82 runs (and only went as high as 80 twice!). And his 303 lifetime batting average puts him in a league with guys like Al Oliver and Manny Mota. The only difference was that Boggs didn't milk it for 25 years. Had Rose not been on such a great team, with guys like Griffey and Foster and Perez and Bench batting behind him, he wouldn't have had nearly the run total that he had. He was a guy that got alot of singles. He was Wade Boggs on a bad day (Boggs hit 328 lifetime). Are his numbers hall of fame numbers? Yes, definatley. But people have to stop comparing him to Cobb and Hornsby and start comparing him to Yaz and Molitor.
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#36244 - 01/31/03 09:15 AM
Re: Rose should be in HOF
[Re: vic6string]
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srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.
Registered: 08/15/02
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Loc: NY
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Let me start by saying that I absolutely hated Rose when he played for the Reds, but, strangely, I learned to love him when he played for the Phils. I don't agree that he was a winner because of the people that surrounded him -- he turned the Phillies into winners -- he showed them how. I remember like it was yesterday when Boone flubbed a pop-up in foul territory and Rose jumped on it (I think it was in the NL Playoffs or WS -- aconte, I'm sure you can straighten me out here!).
While you can argue if his hit record was a result of just hanging around, his consecutive game hit streak put him in very elite company -- Boggs, Oliver, whoever never did anything like this.
Rose was a winner -- plain and simple. He had an amazing career. But, he blew it and blew it bad by gambling on the game. No sympathy from me here -- sorry Pete, you %$#@ed up.
Scott
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#36245 - 01/31/03 09:24 AM
Statistics
[Re: vic6string]
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MW1
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Registered: 07/30/02
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From Total Baseball:
Runs Created (All-Time):
1. Ruth
2. Cobb
3. Musial
4. Aaron
5. Williams
6. Mays
7. Speaker
8. Gehrig
9. Ott & Wagner (tie)
11. Rose
Runs Produced (All-Time):
1, Cobb
2. Aaron
3. Ruth
4. Anson
5. Musial
6. Gehrig
7. Wagner
8. Rose
(Runs Created = total run contribution from a variety of batting and baserunning events. A formula based on many factors including hits, walks, number of times caught stealing, total bases, stolen bases, at bats, number of times hbp, gidp, number of sacrifices, etc.)
(Runs Produced = runs batted in plus runs scored minus home runs)
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#36247 - 01/31/03 11:31 AM
Re: Statistics
[Re: MW1]
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vic6string
The Collectinator
Registered: 04/25/02
Posts: 366
Loc: Miami, Florida
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Okay, here are two numbers that sum up all those stats you bring up:
Games played = 3562
At-Bats = 14053
both of those are WAY ahead of anyone else ever. If I played 3500 games, even I would have scored some runs!
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#36249 - 01/31/03 11:53 AM
Re: Rose should be in HOF
[Re: aconte]
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srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.
Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY
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aconte,
I thought that you might remember the play!!!
Scott
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