#36241 - 01/31/03 02:48 AM
It's a tough call
[Re: vic6string]
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MW1
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Registered: 07/30/02
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Finally...an issue where I'm still undecided.
I agree that Rose's stats should warrant immediate HOF induction. I'm old enough to have seen him in his prime, and to me, he had few contemporaries -- just like many other greats of the game -- Anson, Cobb, Ruth, Paige, Williams, DiMaggio, Mantle, etc. Yes; the championships, the batting titles, the unabandoned style of play, the longevity and the most hits in baseball history put him in that class.
And yet, how are we to judge his extra-curricular activities? Is it even right to do so and to assign so much weight to them compared to his on-the-field prowess? Or was Joe Morgan right when he said that it was only a matter of time after Rose ended his career that he would self-destruct? But then there's the argument about all those players, many of them high-level Hall of Famers, who were either brazen racists, petty thieves, infamous womanizers, unconscionable brawlers, compulsive drunks or gamblers, or even alleged murderers. What of them?
It's a convincing argument, to be sure, but shouldn't basic Hall of Fame requirements be partially determined by a player's contemporaries? Is it right for baseball historians to retrospectively impose such qualifications on all those who have come before a questionable inductee -- using that individual's moral compass as an ex post facto measure of worthiness? Quite often, I feel that this is the true test --does a player stand up to the standards of the current day? Was he that much better than those he played against? Were his off-the-field transgressions any worse than other, compelling Hall of Fame candidates who shared the same diamond? Ultimately, baseball rules stipulate that there has to be some accountability. So how are we to measure it, and not rewrite history in the process, if not by contemporary standards?
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#36243 - 01/31/03 08:50 AM
Re: Rose should be in HOF
[Re: estang]
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vic6string
The Collectinator
Registered: 04/25/02
Posts: 366
Loc: Miami, Florida
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I am with you on this one. I hate when people talk about him in the same circles as Ruth and Cobb and Mays. They look at the hits record and automatically assume he belongs in that class. He was an average fielder at best, and while he was one of the best hitters (or should I say singles hitters) in the game for 15 years, the last 5 years of his career he was mediocre at best, only playing for the record. In fact, had he not been a player manager towards the end, he might not have ever gotten the at-bats to break the record. He had no power, wasn't a good base stealer, never drove in more than 82 runs (and only went as high as 80 twice!). And his 303 lifetime batting average puts him in a league with guys like Al Oliver and Manny Mota. The only difference was that Boggs didn't milk it for 25 years. Had Rose not been on such a great team, with guys like Griffey and Foster and Perez and Bench batting behind him, he wouldn't have had nearly the run total that he had. He was a guy that got alot of singles. He was Wade Boggs on a bad day (Boggs hit 328 lifetime). Are his numbers hall of fame numbers? Yes, definatley. But people have to stop comparing him to Cobb and Hornsby and start comparing him to Yaz and Molitor.
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#36244 - 01/31/03 09:15 AM
Re: Rose should be in HOF
[Re: vic6string]
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srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.
Registered: 08/15/02
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Loc: NY
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Let me start by saying that I absolutely hated Rose when he played for the Reds, but, strangely, I learned to love him when he played for the Phils. I don't agree that he was a winner because of the people that surrounded him -- he turned the Phillies into winners -- he showed them how. I remember like it was yesterday when Boone flubbed a pop-up in foul territory and Rose jumped on it (I think it was in the NL Playoffs or WS -- aconte, I'm sure you can straighten me out here!).
While you can argue if his hit record was a result of just hanging around, his consecutive game hit streak put him in very elite company -- Boggs, Oliver, whoever never did anything like this.
Rose was a winner -- plain and simple. He had an amazing career. But, he blew it and blew it bad by gambling on the game. No sympathy from me here -- sorry Pete, you %$#@ed up.
Scott
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#36245 - 01/31/03 09:24 AM
Statistics
[Re: vic6string]
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MW1
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From Total Baseball:
Runs Created (All-Time):
1. Ruth
2. Cobb
3. Musial
4. Aaron
5. Williams
6. Mays
7. Speaker
8. Gehrig
9. Ott & Wagner (tie)
11. Rose
Runs Produced (All-Time):
1, Cobb
2. Aaron
3. Ruth
4. Anson
5. Musial
6. Gehrig
7. Wagner
8. Rose
(Runs Created = total run contribution from a variety of batting and baserunning events. A formula based on many factors including hits, walks, number of times caught stealing, total bases, stolen bases, at bats, number of times hbp, gidp, number of sacrifices, etc.)
(Runs Produced = runs batted in plus runs scored minus home runs)
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#36247 - 01/31/03 11:31 AM
Re: Statistics
[Re: MW1]
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vic6string
The Collectinator
Registered: 04/25/02
Posts: 366
Loc: Miami, Florida
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Okay, here are two numbers that sum up all those stats you bring up:
Games played = 3562
At-Bats = 14053
both of those are WAY ahead of anyone else ever. If I played 3500 games, even I would have scored some runs!
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#36249 - 01/31/03 11:53 AM
Re: Rose should be in HOF
[Re: aconte]
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srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.
Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 986
Loc: NY
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aconte,
I thought that you might remember the play!!!
Scott
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