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#417076 - 04/23/04 08:38 AM Network 54 and BOTN
KLL
Hobbyist


Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 62

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I've just visited the Network 54 board and was very disappointed with what I saw. I always felt that BOTN was nothing but trouble and this only proves it. He has been very negative and I felt his only purpose on this board was to vent regarding his feelings toward CU and Joe Orlando.

I hope SGC's new management takes a peek over there and makes some judgements regarding BOTN. I don't think that we need dealers like that with SGC.

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#417077 - 04/23/04 09:44 AM Re: Network 54 and BOTN [Re: KLL]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

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Here's the thread....

Network54 Brawl

It seems that a couple of folks have too much time on their hands and decided to type all night. Neither one comes off looking too good IMHO. Who looks worse? I think it is a toss-up.

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#417078 - 04/23/04 12:00 PM Re: Network 54 and BOTN [Re: KLL]
Davalillo1
Collector is an understatement.


Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 119

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I too was very disappointed. So disappointed that I did not read most of it.

I had admired certain stands that Greg had taken and I thought Michael was a smart guy. I also thought each had the best interests of the hobby at heart.

I am not sure if I feel that way now. At some point I will try to read the whole thread but in the meantime I am pretty down on the whole hobby.

Jim

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#417079 - 04/23/04 01:49 PM Re: Network 54 and BOTN [Re: Davalillo1]
Basilone
If I just sell the car, I can up my bid...


Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 166

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One heck of battle with 2 message board legends going after one another. I have a feeling that it started out as each other busting each others balls in good fun..but it turned ugly fast.

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#417080 - 04/23/04 01:58 PM Re: Network 54 and BOTN [Re: Basilone]
njdolphins
The Collectinator


Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 333
Loc: Trimmed, Pressed, Power Erased

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John

You are most likely correct. At the heart of it all though was the insinuation that all grading companies are crooked in some way. VERY disheartening.

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#417081 - 04/23/04 02:26 PM Re: Network 54 and BOTN [Re: njdolphins]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

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Quote:

You are most likely correct. At the heart of it all though was the insinuation that all grading companies are crooked in some way. VERY disheartening




NJ,

I disagree. I think the heart of it all is that this hobby grows on the basis
of greed and that the lack of knowledge and increased ability of some to
manipulate the graded card market has grown. Meanwhile resources to
combat this type of fraud has been reduced due to profit margins and
EBIT targets. It's unfortunate. But the conversation between the two
can be seen as a representation of what goes on in the hobby. I trust
almost no dealers even before last night's post. Yet I still love the hobby
for the good things it can represent. I collect red man cards and have bought
many from a long time collector who purchased these back in the early
80's. For me I just love what the cards represent. If I look at the hobby
as a whole I find a multitude of problems. Sgc still represents the best
option for MY collection. This will not change for me.

aconte
_________________________

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#417082 - 04/23/04 03:04 PM Re: Network 54 and BOTN [Re: aconte]
KLL
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Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 62

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One of my CU buddies emailed me some of the more relevant points made by BOTN and MW. I was quick in reading the Network 54 thread and did not really comprehend all that was written by both of them. It appears that MW has stated that he has sent out cards for restoration (for knowledge). I hope this is not true. If this is true, I will be even more disappointed. I hope MW responds and clarifies this for me (us).

What has happened here between BOTN and MW is one reason that no high profile PSA/SMR advertisers vintage dealers post on the CU boards (Drent, Craig R, SSS, Levi...).

If what I am reading is true regarding MW- I've got to think that SGC would have to reconsider its relationship with him too. I hope he post and posts something soon!

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#417083 - 04/23/04 03:30 PM Re: Network 54 and BOTN [Re: KLL]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

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While the thread is amusing, it isn't a commentary on anything but the participants. On the plus side, it's good to see passions among SGC high profile dealers.
_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#417084 - 04/23/04 03:52 PM Re: Network 54 and BOTN [Re: Davalillo1]
toothpick2
Learning the Ropes


Registered: 03/09/04
Posts: 23

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davallilo you come across as arrogant but deep down i think you are an ok guy who cares about the hobby. i think your big mistake involves poor judgment of character in regards to zardoz. believing that zardoz was a stand up guy you took his word that botn is a stand up guy. funny thing is that zardoz would also say that cramer is a stand up guy. that alone should tell you something.

davalillo what would you think if i were to tell you that the three aforementioned people allegedly engaged in artificially inflating the price of a psa 10 mantle rub off at john branca's expense? would you believe me? i'm pretty sure mike wentz and john basilone could comment on this but i doubt basilone will have the balls to speak up.

mw is a good guy. i can't say the same about botn.

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#417085 - 04/23/04 04:13 PM ... [Re: KLL]
MW1
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Registered: 07/30/02
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#417086 - 04/23/04 04:36 PM Re: Setting the record straight. [Re: MW1]
grilloj39
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 215
Loc: San Antonio, TX

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I think both Greg and Mike are stand-up dealers...both have gone out of their way to assist me in one way or another. I just ask that both of them step back for a second, and takes some time to reflect on their statements and accusations toward one another. Let it go, and let bygones be bygones, and let's get back to the business of card collecting.
_________________________
Always looking for GAI,SGC,PSA vintage Hockey and Boxing.

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#417087 - 04/23/04 05:11 PM Re: Setting the record straight. [Re: grilloj39]
Basilone
If I just sell the car, I can up my bid...


Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 166

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Quote:

i'm pretty sure mike wentz and john basilone could comment on this but i doubt basilone will have the balls to speak up.





Trying to throw some bait my way paisano?


The Rub Off card does sound familiar. It must of been about a year ago...right? Anyways..I believe someone emailed me (was it you toothpick2?) saying that the underbidders on this auction were alternate eBay usernames of people...but I forget which ones.

Feel free to send me an email jbasilone@adelphia.net (if you got the balls)...and refresh my memory.


Also....


In regards to last nights brawl...I followed it for most of the night and I found it enteraining...those two can drop some bombs.

I must say....after speaking with a number of veteran collectors, I am pretty comfortable is stating that I do not believe Michael Wentz sells altered and/or restored graded cards.

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#417088 - 04/23/04 05:17 PM Re: Setting the record straight. [Re: Basilone]
jackstraw
Talkative?


Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 744
Loc: @ a Baseball Card Show

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If anyone ever thought to themselves how can somebody collect 1976 topps cards or 1977 topps cards or even collect new glossy refracting serial numbered cards that are autographed?why would someone want a vg raw set? well this is the reason!!!!!
_________________________
Ken Griffey Jr

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#417089 - 04/23/04 05:18 PM ... [Re: KLL]
MW1
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#417090 - 04/23/04 06:31 PM Re: Network 54 and BOTN [Re: MW1]
Basilone
If I just sell the car, I can up my bid...


Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 166

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I agree with what MW says. In addition, I know for a fact that many check the boards frequently to see if there are any negative posts about them.


John

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#417091 - 04/23/04 06:49 PM ... [Re: Basilone]
MW1
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#417092 - 04/23/04 07:16 PM Re: Setting the record straight. [Re: MW1]
Basilone
If I just sell the car, I can up my bid...


Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 166

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MW-

Did you just Thank me ..then Slam me in the same post?

I'm in the process of educating myself by studying 13 years worth of significant hobby auctions going back to the Copeland auction, as well as, continuing my daily analysis of significant eBay transactions. In addition, I've worked on making contacts within in the hobby and picking their brains about specific issues. I plan on doing my homework before I decide to open my pie hole regarding pre-war issues. (notice I've kept quiet about that area). I've also been reading the Network 54 board, taking notes, trying to learn as much as possible.

This is the best I can do in educating myself with the resources that I currently have available. Simply put...I will read whatever I can get my hands on regarding this hobby and listen to any advice given.

When my disposable income increases over time (I'm 32 yrs old) right now...I feel the time spent with research and study will provide me with a competitive advantage in regards to correct and logical purchase decisions.

Instead of sets...I'm concentrating on owning a smaller number of cards but the average cost being much higher than an average vintage PSA 8 common. Mostly stuff that resides in auction house catalogues. In order make the "correct plays" on the buy side...I realize that I need to do my homework first..and that is what I'm doing now.

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#417093 - 04/23/04 07:17 PM Re: Network 54 and BOTN [Re: toothpick2]
Davalillo1
Collector is an understatement.


Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 119

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Toothpick2,

I have met Paul(Zardoz) on two occasions--consider him a friend and do not believe he would defraud anyone. But you are right that he did speak highly of Greg(wow, how did you know this?).
I am going to stay with my view that Michael and Greg want what is best for the hobby. I have never liked personal attacks on the boards and think the fighting/pimp stuff should go.
Who is cramer?
John Basilone,

What is he talking about or if you won't say--Michael--what is this about the Mantle and Branca?

Jim

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#417094 - 04/23/04 07:24 PM ... [Re: Basilone]
MW1
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#417095 - 04/23/04 07:26 PM Re: Network 54 and BOTN [Re: Davalillo1]
grilloj39
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 215
Loc: San Antonio, TX

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Basilone...I think your're a class act and an asset to the hobby.

I want to state again, I think Greg and Mike are class dealers. The knowledge both of them bring to this hobby is superb and their level of customer assistance is second to none. I hope this synergy will continue....

Sometimes people don't have the greatest of days and a spark can sometimes start a fire. Hopefully, these two will work out their differences.
_________________________
Always looking for GAI,SGC,PSA vintage Hockey and Boxing.

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#417096 - 04/23/04 07:27 PM Re: Setting the record straight. [Re: MW1]
Basilone
If I just sell the car, I can up my bid...


Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 166

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MW - Oh I see what you were saying.

Jim - I sent you an email.

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#417097 - 04/23/04 07:49 PM Re: Network 54 and BOTN [Re: Basilone]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

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Quote:

I agree with what MW says. In addition, I know for a fact that many check the boards frequently to see if there are any negative posts about them.





This comment from Basilone is a fact. I have a personal experience after an
email I received from a ticked off Psa authorized dealer who did not appreciate
a post I made about a year and a half ago. And there are others that know me
through the boards. Basilone is 100% correct on this!

aconte
_________________________

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#417098 - 04/24/04 06:21 AM Re: Setting the record straight. [Re: Basilone]
Davalillo1
Collector is an understatement.


Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 119

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Thanks John Basilone and Michael for the info.

Of course I know Solomon Kramer--just slipped my mind seeing his last name.

John,

Interesting strategy. Listen to Michael--he knows a lot. Also listen to Marc Schoneon. The Network 54 Board is also invaluable....and be careful. A year or two ago I attempted to make the argument to Michael and Greg that altered cards finding their way into PSA holders was a rare occurance--I have a different view now.

Jim

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#417099 - 04/24/04 11:18 AM Re: Setting the record straight. [Re: Davalillo1]
Basilone
If I just sell the car, I can up my bid...


Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 166

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Thanks Jim. Marc and I shoot the breeze every once and while. He is a good guy.

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#417100 - 04/24/04 04:28 PM ... [Re: Basilone]
MW1
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Registered: 07/30/02
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#417101 - 04/24/04 04:40 PM Re: Setting the record straight. [Re: MW1]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

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MW1,

I think you are asking a lot from some on the Psa boards. Do you think your
expectations are too high if some can not recognize the difference between you and 'ranch'?

aconte
_________________________

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#417102 - 04/24/04 04:51 PM Re: Setting the record straight. [Re: aconte]
MW1
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Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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Aconte,

Probably.

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#417103 - 04/24/04 05:18 PM koby's identity revealed? [Re: MW1]
toothpick2
Learning the Ropes


Registered: 03/09/04
Posts: 23

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http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=37&threadid=282981

who is eric? interesting story about the 56 set mastro just auctioned.

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#417104 - 04/24/04 06:58 PM .... [Re: toothpick2]
MW1
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Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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#417105 - 04/24/04 08:00 PM Re: koby's identity revealed? [Re: MW1]
Davalillo1
Collector is an understatement.


Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 119

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MW1,

Certainly would not surprise me that scum like Bow and Cowart were masquerading as attack dogs. Cowart reportedly has posted under a number of names with the sole purpose of attacking people and although Bow denies it he certainly possesses the kind of personality that would attack collectors anonymously. I had thought Kobe was a real person--real dumb. Have never heard of Pugh and cannot remember if Uniship ever attacked me.

Those guys are real sickos.

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#417106 - 04/24/04 08:24 PM Re: koby's identity revealed? [Re: Davalillo1]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

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In idle moments, I have considered the anonymity issues as well. We all know the people who post anonymously lurk on this Board, if not post under yet different names.

Without expressing my conclusion about what has been said here, to those lurking anonymous posters, who ever they are: You're gutless and hypocritical.


Edited by vayank (04/24/04 08:26 PM)
_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#417107 - 04/25/04 05:56 PM Re: Network 54 and BOTN [Re: Davalillo1]
steve52bowman
Just got here


Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 5

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Quote:

I too was very disappointed. So disappointed that I did not read most of it.

I had admired certain stands that Greg had taken and I thought Michael was a smart guy. I also thought each had the best interests of the hobby at heart.

I am not sure if I feel that way now. At some point I will try to read the whole thread but in the meantime I am pretty down on the whole hobby.

Jim





Jim all I can say is simply this............enjoy the cards and damn with all the nonsence that these boards (all of them) bring to the hobby.

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