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#44577 - 01/03/03 08:44 AM Attention people of the Card!
murph0
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Registered: 06/20/02
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Loc: IOWA

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Would you say that in the long run "pro" grading has helped or hurt your industry? Also, do you think a lot of people jumped ship from card collecting b/c of the multiple grading companies? And finally, how are prices now compared to what they were in the grading companies first started? Thanks for the info

Brian
_________________________
Looking for TtA 57 in 9.0 or better, ASM 28 9.2, STT 101 8.0, and Cap America 119 9.6

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#44578 - 01/04/03 03:16 AM Re: Attention people of the Card! [Re: murph0]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

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Brian,

I'm not sure about the long run -- I get the feeling that there is finally starting to be some stability as far as grading services go. Over the past several years, there have been tons of services that have popped up...and often disappear within 6-12 months. There are a few more "stragglers" that will probably disappear before long -- leaving 4 of any significance...and only 3 of any significance in the vintage world.

Have they helped or hurt? The legit companies have turned the internet into a card shop of your dreams -- you can find anything now...and, if graded by someone legit + a scan you aren't buying "blind" and you can now easily spend your life's savings in an afternoon. The flip side to this is the grading services that aren't exactly legit -- I believe that more than a few people have been burned and probably turned off card collecting because of this. So, be careful -- just because it is graded doesn't mean it is (1) un-altered or (2) accurately graded.

What about prices? For high grade vintage stuff -- I'd bet prices are up a bit. For low grade vintage stuff -- probably down significantly. I'm old, so to me vintage means 60's and earlier...I don't have much of a view of what is going on in the 70's. My personal opinion is that there isn't a real need to have anything modern (80's and later) graded -- in many cases, you can pick it up already graded in eBAY for less than the cost of grading.

Scott

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#44579 - 01/04/03 12:42 PM Re: Attention people of the Card! [Re: murph0]
Fabfrank
(S)uper Collector


Registered: 06/11/02
Posts: 293

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Good post Scott. In a way Pro Grading has helped the industry. By grading trimmed, altered, and incorrectly grading cards collectors can now see the true value of the legitimate grading companies. I feel there are only 3 grading companies worth collecting-SGC, PSA and BGS. Although I find myself lately only buying SGC and PSA cards.
I don't think people have left the hobby due to all the multiple grading companies. I think people have left the hobby due to all the new product. I constantly hear from former or fringe collectors that they left the hobby because they are confused about what to collect. Look at Upper Deck. In 2001 for football there was UD Graded, Upper Deck, Upper Deck Legends, Upper Deck MVP, Upper Deck Ovation, Upper Deck Pros and Prospects, Upper Deck Rookie F/X, Upper Deck Top Tier, Upper Deck Victory, Upper Deck Vintage, SP Authentic, SP Game Used and SPx. That's from one company! Now add similar offerings from Topps/Bowman, Fleer, Donruss/Playoff, Pacific and Score.
As for prices. With vintage it really depends on the grade, year, and card (whether star or common). Prices on Hi grade (9 or better) Vintage graded material has climbed steadily since grading became accepted. Prices on low pop commons have recently exploded. Prices on hi grade modern cards (1980 and up) started strong, but have come down in price as populations have risen. Hope that answers your questions.

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#44580 - 01/04/03 03:22 PM Re: Attention people of the Card! [Re: srs1a]
murph0
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Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 10000
Loc: IOWA

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Thanks for the info guys. As for another thing..how have prices done on cards that were always considered pretty valuable but now after a few years of having a census (population) report, it's become obvious that they aren't very rare at all. Did the prices fall b/c of the high amount in the population report or did prices stay the same?

Brian
_________________________
Looking for TtA 57 in 9.0 or better, ASM 28 9.2, STT 101 8.0, and Cap America 119 9.6

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#44581 - 01/05/03 10:35 AM Re: Attention people of the Card! [Re: Fabfrank]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

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Hello Fabfrank, nice to see you back!

I interpreted "pro" grading in murphs's original post as professional grading, not PRO.

Murph0 -- one of the services that I (and many others) are hoping will disappear is an outfit called PRO. My comments about graded not meaing un-altered were directed at this service. Many of the cards in their holders seem to be smaller than usual -- not sure why all the small cards seem to go there!

FF -- our collecting habits are similar -- my collection resides in PSA and SGC holders. In my "legit" category, I include BGS for modern material and GAI for vintage...I don't collect their cards, but given their heritage l can't exactly ignore them either.

Collect on!

Scott







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#44582 - 01/20/03 09:03 PM Re: Attention people of the Card! [Re: murph0]
MW1
veteran


Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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murph,

(1) In some ways, I think that PRO grading has helped the hobby. On more than one chatboard, for instance, examples of PRO graded cards are posted on a regular basis as contributors discuss what to look for on those specimens that are altered. In that sense, it provides a source of education.

When PRO first started it is possible that some unwary collectors purchased altered cards in PRO holders and became "turned-off" to graded cards. It is possible the same is now happening with some AAA and NASA graded "cards." Currently, however, PRO cards are thought of as more of a curiosity or a filler card for a low-grade collector. I do not know of any serious vintage collectors who purchase PRO cards on a regular basis.

(2) Yes, I think that when PSA was the only major grading company in the hobby, collectors had little choice. As more grading companies entered the field, some collectors, for a variety of different reasons, seceded from the PSA union. There were also some prominent dealers who made a similar change,

(3) With the exception of a few isolated anomalies, prices are generally higher now than they were in the late 1980s when grading first started (SBC, ASA). Graded cards never really started "taking off" until around 1996 or 1997, though.

One more thing -- upon first reading Scott's reply that standardized grading has lowered the value for lesser-graded material, I was inclined to agree. But then I started thinking about it, and I'm not so sure. Overall, I think there are just too many factors to consider when making such a statement tying the encapsulation process to lower values for less than perfect cards. If anything, I can think of many exceptions -- particularly for rare or scarce issues or for cards that might have perpetual issues of authenticity. I believe that difficult-to-grade or commonly over-graded issues might also fall into this category. Another notable exception would be Set Registries that have inflated the prices for cards (particularly commons) in nearly every grade -- even lower ones.

Also, one must consider that before the era of grading, the customer had to implicitly rely more on the dealer's perception of condition than on an independent third party's judgment. To that extent, perhaps the overall "perception" of how a card grades demands a more conservative view of condition. In other words, a card that once was graded NM-MT in a raw state in the early 1990s might only be encapsulated as an EX/NM 6 example today -- not so much because of a missed defect, but because of more rigorously applied grading standards, particularly with respect to centering and the quality of the reverse side. Yes, perhaps values HAVE declined for some less than NM condition graded cards, but the reasons may not necessarily be tied to the actual plastic slabs that enclose the cards.

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