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#49071 - 01/15/03 10:21 PM SGC graded "benchmark" cards continue to gain in value vs. PSA
MW1
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Registered: 07/30/02
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Is the perception that PSA graded cards sell for the highest prices accurate? Not during the past several months. Here are some recent examples of major rookie cards or "benchmark" indicators:

1955-56 Parkhurst #50 Jacques Plante Rookie Card.

SGC 92 value = $2555.
SMR value for a PSA 8 = $2000.
The typical range for a PSA 8 would be $1500 (low-end) to $2000 (high-end).


1963 Topps #537 Pete Rose Rookie Card.

SGC 88 value = $2500.
SMR Value = $1750.
Recent PSA 8 sales have been in the $1300 (low-end) to $1500 range (high-end).


1968 Topps #177 Nolan Ryan Rookie Card.

SGC 92 value = $1600.
SMR Value = $1100.
The typical range for a PSA 8 would be $900 (low-end) to $1200 (high-end).


As can be seen by these key examples, SGC cards -- even those from the 1950s and 1960s -- have overtaken the values for similar PSA graded cards. And with the drastic loss of confidence from the current PSA scandal, I expect this gap to widen.

For those who are interested in pricing more vintage SGC graded cards, here is an interesting article and list of key vintage sports card values:

http://www.bmwcards.com/ebay/Hobbynews3.htm

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#49072 - 01/15/03 11:29 PM Re: SGC graded "benchmark" cards continue to gain in value vs. PSA [Re: MW1]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

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"BMW: All They Do is Score Touchdowns."
_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#49073 - 01/15/03 11:41 PM Just empty rhetoric [Re: vayank]
Anonymous Unregistered



Mathew,

Maybe I'm just frustrated. Not with SGC prices but with PSA rhetoric. I can't tell you the number of times I've heard "PSA cards from the 1950s and 60s sell for the most." Well, besides some select commons that a couple of set collectors go nuts on, where's the evidence? I tell you what -- I'm not seeing any. Where are those 1950s and 60s PSA star cards that are selling for so much? I'm seeing price levels at 60 to 80 percent of SMR on most mainstream issues.

On a more practical level, I think much of this rhetoric is generated by PSA collectors who have a large financial stake in the hobby (in the form of PSA graded cards) and they figure if they repeat a certain magical phrase enough times, it will become reality. Well, for nearly a decade, it has worked. But things are changing in this great hobby of ours. Collectors are becoming smarter and better able to discern condition. Those who collect vintage and modern cards want the highest graded examples, not the holders with the largest numbers. I don't think I've ever seen a vintage PSA 10 that compares to a vintage SGC 98....or a vintage PSA 9 that compares to a vintage SGC 96. It's no wonder that SGC cards have gained so much ground, and in many cases, surpassed the prices of similarly graded PSA material.

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#49074 - 01/16/03 12:42 AM Re: SGC graded "benchmark" cards continue to gain in value vs. PSA [Re: MW1]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

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While I do not doubt the information that you posted, it isn't clear to me that this is the whole story.

For instance, if you look at vintage commons in high grade, you get the opposite answer. Here is some data that I collected and posted in December

*******
Over the weekend a large, very high-end auction by dhcards on eBAY finished. The cards were incredible -- more PSA-10's and SGC-98 than you could shake a stick at -- most of them in the late 60's to early 70's.

My interest in in '68's and here are the statistics:

12 PSA-10 commons sold for an average price of $244! The high card went for $510 -- I was stunned.

11 SGC-98 commons sold for an average priceof $113, with the high card going for $254 -- not too shabby, but 2X lower that the PSA-10's.

********

This dealer had similar auctions that ran through the holiday season and the results were quite consistent with the above.

Clearly, the interest in high-grade commons is driven by set collectors...and the PSA set registry is more mature than the SGC registry. I hope the same thing happens to "lesser" cards that has apparently happened for "benchmark" cards, but I don't see any evidence of that today.

Scott


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#49075 - 01/16/03 01:44 AM Re: SGC graded "benchmark" cards continue to gain in value vs. PSA *DELETED* [Re: srs1a]
MW1
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Post deleted by dena
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#49076 - 01/16/03 09:33 AM Re: SGC graded "benchmark" cards continue to gain in value vs. PSA [Re: MW1]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

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I have tracked prices of red man cards from most completed auctions for close
to two years.

My data shows that on average Sgc and Psa graded red man cards sell for
close to the same multiple of Smr. There is really little difference. There is a market for cards in both holder.

Regardless, I try to buy the card and not the holder. It doesn't always work.
But as a collector that is what I'm trying to do. My 54 and 55 set are in Sgc
holders. Many of the cards are high end. I dealt with some great people
and some of the cards have been graded by both companies!

aconte

_________________________

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#49077 - 01/16/03 10:09 AM Re: SGC graded "benchmark" cards continue to gain in value vs. PSA [Re: aconte]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

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I think what separates BMW from other sellers is that BMW is fully committed to SGC, and they are not looking for excuses -- just ways to sell great product. They demonstrate what SGC brings to the table. Whereas some live out a self-fulfilling prophesy about re-sale value, which takes less effort, and really don't want to market hard, BMW understands how to market great products. Yes, SGC does take more effort in the marketplace, and yes, SGC is looking for ways to be better marketers, but many sellers are simply lousy marketers and they are quick to attribute their own failures elsewhere.
_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#49078 - 01/16/03 01:25 PM Re: Just empty rhetoric
Anonymous Unregistered



I have no ties to either company, and I can say that I am equally impressed with both SGCs and PSAs grading. Its the other companies that scare me away.
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#49079 - 01/16/03 05:03 PM Re: Just empty rhetoric
MW1
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In reply to:

**** C'mon people.....sell me your high grade GI JOES****






Can you fit them in small plastic slabs? I'll have to check before I sell you mine.

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#49080 - 01/17/03 01:16 PM Re: Just empty rhetoric [Re: MW1]
SGCRULES
Learning the Ropes


Registered: 11/25/02
Posts: 21
Loc: Little Rock, Arkansas

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I think he is here at SGC because PSA does not want his business for several different reasons that I will not get into.
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#49081 - 01/20/03 08:39 PM Update: another addition to SGC "benchmark" pricing [Re: SGCRULES]
MW1
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1973 Topps #615 Mike Schmidt Rookie Card -- SGC 96

SGC 96 final selling price = $1802.77
SMR Value for a PSA 9 = $1150.
***No recent data on PSA 9 sales***

Notes: The 1973 Topps Mike Schmidt is a very challenging card to find in better than NM-MT condition due to chipping on the reverse side, uneven borders, a typical uneven (diamond) cut, and a notably softer cardstock. I chose this card as a more universal indicator of market trends due to its status as the only rookie card from the time period 1970 to 1980, with a value in excess of $100 in Near Mint condition.

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#49082 - 01/21/03 07:42 AM Re: Update: another addition to SGC "benchmark" pricing [Re: MW1]
Anonymous Unregistered



Actually the main problem that prevents the Schmidt from MINT status is print snow. The other problems you mention are more general to the '73 set but varying degrees of print snow is very common on the Schmidt. It's also what downgraded mine to NM/MT.
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#49083 - 01/21/03 03:51 PM Re: Update: another addition to SGC "benchmark" pricing
MW1
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Unregistered,

I'm not sure I agree. Certainly, on any card with a solid or dark background, there is a good chance that a significant print defect can be perpetuated, but in this case, I find the solid black reverse to be a larger impediment to finding Mint examples. Also, my experience with this set tells me that quality control was often very poor for 1973 high-series wax. In my opinion, the only place Mint condition Schmidt rookies can be found in is Topps factory sets or from vending.

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#49084 - 01/22/03 04:15 AM Re: Update: another addition to SGC "benchmark" pricing [Re: MW1]
Anonymous Unregistered



are there any other dealers in sgc vintage cards?
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#49085 - 01/22/03 11:30 AM Re: Update: another addition to SGC "benchmark" pricing
deadlyembrace
The Venus Card Trap


Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 596
Loc: Austin, TX

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Here's a couple ... check out:

TC Card Co.

and ...

Clean Sweep Auctions


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#49086 - 01/27/03 08:55 AM Update: another addition to SGC "benchmark" pricing [Re: deadlyembrace]
MW1
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1978 O-Pee-Chee #154 Eddie Murray Rookie Card - SGC 96

SGC 96 final selling price = $300.00
SMR Value for a PSA 9 = $255.00
***No recent data on PSA 9 sales***
(several PSA 9 copies have been listed during the last two months in the $249 to $269 range, but none received opening bids)

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#49087 - 01/30/03 06:43 AM Re: Update: another addition to SGC "benchmark" pricing [Re: MW1]
deadlyembrace
The Venus Card Trap


Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 596
Loc: Austin, TX

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WOW!!

O Pee Chee Die-Cut #118 Joe DiMaggio SGC 9

Let's see ... if I sell my house, my cars, my wife, etc. ... maybe I can safely cover the minimum reserve!!!

Nice card. Looks familiar ...

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#49088 - 01/30/03 10:43 AM Re: Update: another addition to SGC "benchmark" pricing [Re: deadlyembrace]
Anonymous Unregistered



Is this card not MW's? How long before this seller is in jail or worse?
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#49089 - 01/30/03 10:45 AM Re: Update: another addition to SGC "benchmark" pricing [Re: deadlyembrace]
MW1
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Mark,

Thank you for the notification. As everyone probably knows, this is a FRAUDULENT eBay listing. I have contacted eBay and the auction should be ended within the hour. I am also going to recommend that the seller be booted.

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#49090 - 01/30/03 11:02 AM Re: Update: another addition to SGC "benchmark" pricing [Re: MW1]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

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the same guy has a 51 Mantle PSA-9 for auction...wonder where he got that image?
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#49091 - 01/30/03 11:29 AM Re: Update: another addition to SGC "benchmark" pricing [Re: MW1]
Anonymous Unregistered



"I am also going to recommend that the seller be booted"
MW1-Should this offense not result in immediate removal of the seller regardless?

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#49092 - 01/30/03 12:04 PM Re: Update: another addition to SGC "benchmark" pricing
MW1
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Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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Anonymous,

The auction has been ended and the seller has been suspended. According to eBay's rules governing Seller Non-Performance, using an image that does not belong to you does not necessary result in suspension:


eBay Policy

Not delivering an item for which payment was accepted or significantly misrepresenting an item by not meeting the terms and item description that are outlined in the listing is prohibited.

Disciplinary action may result in a formal warning, temporary suspension, or indefinite suspension.


Also, under eBay's VERO program, if a violation has occurred, the auction in question will be ended but the seller will not necessarily be suspended.


If you would like to recommend further action against this seller (e.g., jail time as you suggest above), that is totally up to you.

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#49093 - 02/24/03 01:53 AM OK, time for me to eat some crow [Re: MW1]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

Offline
Previously, I posted that I didn't quite agree that SGC cards were commanding the greatest prices. MW1 showed data which made the case for "benchmark" cards, I posted some data that indicated that "common stiffs" were not quite following this trend.

Well, after a long weekend of getting absolutely pounded on eBAY, I have changed my tune. There were 2 large auctions of high-grade 1968T baseball that concluded this weekend -- the vast majority was SGC graded...and the final tally was.....drumroll please.....56 SGC-96 "commons" changed hands at an average price of $56.20! WOW....SMR is $30-35 (the spread is low#'s -vs- high#'s..and the last SMR that I have is 12/01...so this might have moved in a year).

The high card was #285 Dick McAuliffe at an incredible $235.83!!! This was not a simple case of 2 intoxicated bidders...3 bidders went over $200, and another bidder went over $100....further testiment to the fact that '68 Tigers have a very special appeal to some folks. Several other cards went in excess of $100 a pop and plenty went in the $70-90 range.

My head still hurts from the pounding that I took . I think I liked the "old days" better when I could pick up a 96 for 20 bucks.

Scott






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#49094 - 02/24/03 10:30 AM SRA1: Another fine auction from DHCARDS [Re: srs1a]
estang
(S)uper Collector


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 496

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I followed some of those auctions as well. They raised my eyebrows. I tell you that DHCARDS has some absolutely terrific cards and uses SGC as his top-grading company, although he mixes it up a bit.

Read this sellers "my ebay" and you will know that you are dealing with the best of the best.

He is so rich with knowledge that he even critiques the quality of a Mint graded card by noting centering, focus, coloring etc...

There was some 1969 Topps card of a Cardinals no name that he had sold in PSA or SGC 9 and then recently sold it as a PSA 8. Apparently this card must be the toughest of the tough to find in Mint because it was going for hundreds of dollars.

I've bought a 77 LeFlore from DHCARDS and it is simply sweet. I look forward to his auctions.
_________________________
Enjoy Your Collection & SKOL VIKINGS!

Erik

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#49095 - 02/24/03 12:35 PM Re: OK, time for me to eat some crow [Re: srs1a]
MW1
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Scott,

I don't think there's any doubt that 1950s and 60s SGC commons have appreciated noticeably since the SGC Set Registry was started. I too have noticed a dramatic increase in price for SGC 96s over the last month.

Anytime a 1966 Topps Sam McDowell #470 SGC 96 can sell for $128.50, that's a sure sign that commons and minor stars are beginning to take-off in SGC holders.

Link to auction

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#49096 - 02/24/03 01:51 PM Re: OK, time for me to eat some crow [Re: srs1a]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

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Scott,

I tried to reply at work but couldn't. Anyhow, great post. I hope you got some.
I noticed that some red man cards offered by Champs & Bums a few weeks
ago started slow and finished strong. Some times it does depend on the
auctions end date.

I've noticed the auctions from DHCards. His writeups are good. They seem
accurate too. He doesn't pull punches usually. It beats reading the usual
I don't know how this card got a 8. I've seen them go through great detail
in describing qualities and flaws in their auctions. This is one of the reasons
I like BMW's auctions too. They accurately describes their items with great
detail. Some others do too, but they are two that come to mind.

Erik,

The 69 card you speak of is #110 Shannon. It's supposed to be a tough
one. That and I think the big 1969 guys made sure it wouldn't go cheap.

aconte
_________________________

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#49097 - 02/25/03 12:56 AM Re: OK, time for me to eat some crow [Re: aconte]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

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I agree with everything that everybody said about dhcards -- clearly a class operation. The incredible thing to me was that another seller (who I had never dealt with) did just as well (just_collect). This said to me that it wasn't just a case of everybody loving dhcards....but the market had changed.

Scott

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#49098 - 02/25/03 03:50 AM Re: OK, time for me to eat some crow [Re: MW1]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

Offline
MW1 -- I just looked at the '66 auction you referenced.

The buyer is one of the gentlemen that made my weekend so stressful! I hope he posts his sets eventually, because they must be scorchers. I am sure that several other board members know the wrath of "blambro".

Scott

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#49099 - 09/03/03 11:37 PM 1960 Topps Yastrzemski (SGC 96) sells for impressive price [Re: srs1a]
MW1
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Posts: 1358

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1960 Topps #148 Carl Yastrzemski Rookie Card - SGC 96

Link to 1960 Yaz auction

SGC 96 final selling price = $3400.00
SMR Value for a PSA 9 = $2600.00

***No recent data on PSA 9 sales***


Notes: The 1960 Topps Carl Yastrzemski is a very challenging card to find in better than NM-MT condition due to common left/right centering problems and the common incident of excess printing on the front. I chose this card as a mainstream indicator of market trends due to its status as the predominant early 1960s rookie card and its popularity among East coast hobbyists.

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#49100 - 09/05/03 10:00 AM Re: 1960 Topps Yastrzemski (SGC 96) sells for impressive price [Re: MW1]
Fabfrank
(S)uper Collector


Registered: 06/11/02
Posts: 293

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Mike- I was blown away by that card. 43 year old Yaz rookie that looks better than most cards pulled from packs today. Congrats on the sale.
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#49101 - 09/05/03 08:21 PM 1969 Shannon [Re: Fabfrank]
gemint
Learning the Ropes


Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 25

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I was one of the set builders who won a Shannon from DHCards. It was an SGC92 that I crossed to a PSA 8. I sure wish I knew their source(s) for raw cards. They continually pump out impressive percentages of Mint and Gem Mint cards. I followed one of their PSA invoices via sequential serial numbers for a late 60s submission and saw they were nailing 10s on about every fifth card. They had better than 60% 9s and the rest were mostly 8s. Very few 7s or worse. Looks like they have similar success with SGC.

Edited by gemint (09/05/03 08:25 PM)

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#49102 - 09/13/03 07:41 AM Re: Update: another addition to SGC "benchmark" pricing [Re: deadlyembrace]
grilloj39
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 215
Loc: San Antonio, TX

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SGCs slight gain against PSA is due to two reasons IMHO...first is the increase in willingness of collectors to buy SGC cards at slightly higher prices then they were willing to pay before, but also, it is an increase of Seller's willing to increase the amounts in the initial bids of SGC items in their auction. In other words, I see an increase of starting prices of SGC items.

_________________________
Always looking for GAI,SGC,PSA vintage Hockey and Boxing.

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