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#66413 - 02/21/03 08:42 AM Opinions on this Graded Red man card
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
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I've posted this on the Psa boards since it was a Psa card I'm interested
in buying. I got some good responses but I thought I'd post here looking
for additional comments from some of the pro's on this board (especially
MW1).

What is your opinion of this card graded Psa 8? Does the right edge
seem trimmed? Can one really make a decent determination based
just on a scan?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2712327136&category=16271

Thanks. I'm probably going to pass on this card. But I guess I'm looking
for some comments or reassurance.

aconte
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#66414 - 02/21/03 08:56 AM Re: Opinions on this Graded Red man card *DELETED* [Re: aconte]
MW1
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Posts: 1358

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#66415 - 02/21/03 09:28 AM Re: Opinions on this Graded Red man card [Re: MW1]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
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MW1,

Thanks for the reply. I agree. I don't think the card exhibits a diamond cut.
I've never seen a bio box on the red man cards to do that or have that look.

When I look at the group of red man cards with certification numbers
similar to the Slaughter (30223701 to 30223804 and 30223870 to
30223898) there was a large number of rejected cards due to trimming
(and a couple recolored). Should that be a concern to me as well?
Should I try to judge each card on its own merit? For example, I've
been told and believe that the Psa 8 Mathews looks good that is part
of the cert run and on ebay right now.

And one last card question:

any opinion on this card? Does the right edge seem short or is that the
holder?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2712331692&category=16271

Thanks for your help. I appreciate it. It is discouraging seeing your cards
in lower grade holders when the some of the examples you see graded
higher don't seem that good.

aconte
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#66416 - 02/21/03 09:50 AM Re: Opinions on this Graded Red man card *DELETED* [Re: aconte]
MW1
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Posts: 1358

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#66417 - 02/21/03 09:54 AM Re: Opinions on this Graded Red man card [Re: aconte]
MW1
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Registered: 07/30/02
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aconte,

In answer to your question -- no, I wouldn't buy any Red Man cards from this dealer unless he guaranteed me that SGC would grade them.

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#66418 - 02/21/03 03:39 PM Re: Opinions on this Graded Red man card [Re: MW1]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
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MW1,

Thanks for the reply!

aconte
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#66419 - 02/24/03 05:12 AM MW -- I will take you up on the offer [Re: aconte]
theBobs
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Registered: 01/24/03
Posts: 40

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"I could teach a novice to detect alterations in about 10 minutes"

MW,

I have been building the 52 Red Man set for 10 months. Please share with this novice your methods. I have received great help from aconte and mrredman to this point, but would love to hear what you have to say.

Please post any tips, or we can take this to email if you prefer.

Thanks,

Brian

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#66420 - 02/24/03 10:34 AM Re: Opinions on this Graded Red man card [Re: MW1]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

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MW1,

I am genuinely curious what your definition of vintage is...as in "the current PSA graders are genuinely incompetent when it comes to grading vintage cards".

My personal opinion is the it can't be that hard to grade a "standard issue" topps card (with an important caveat -- provided one had enough experience and training). In a relatively short time, I think I have developed a good eye for 68's by going through the school of hard knocks at SGC...and by submitting cards that I thought would be "interesting" from a grading perspective. I wouldn't think it would be too great of a stetch to think I could quickly learn anything back to '57...and even '52 if I got brave. While my cards are relatively low-value, hence not likely to have been tampered with, it seems to me that the exact same techniques to tampering could be used on all of these issues. Am I missing something?

I think I would be much more apprehensive about things like Red Mans, double headers, regional issues, pre-war cards, etc. where it would be really tough to get the required experience in a reasonable amount of time.

I'd appreciate your comments.

thanks,

Scott




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#66421 - 02/24/03 01:23 PM Re: MW -- I will take you up on the offer [Re: theBobs]
MW1
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Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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theBobs,

OK. Let's assume I only have 10 minutes to work with. The first thing I'd do is hand a stack of 75 to 100 raw, high-grade Red Mans to a beginning collector and tell him to take a look at the cuts on the corners and textures of the surfaces and make some mental notes as to what high-grade specimens are supposed to look like. As he went through the cards, I would also point out the following characteristics:

(1) A majority of Red Mans have at least one beveled edge. Directly opposite a beveled edge is a "flat" or "straight" edge. In the vast majority of cases, this straight edge will have a cross section that exhibits noticeable striations (under 10X magnification) that run at oblique angles (generally somewhere in the vicinity of 45 degrees) to the edge of the card. Absent an unusual factory cut, if the striations are missing (a smooth cut) or if the striations are not aligned at the same angle, evidence of trimming exists.

(2) The type of cut is key. For those cards that do not have some type of beveling, a consistent cut must be observed between opposite edges (observed under 10X magnification).

(3) The angle of the cut is key (dimensionally speaking, this would be along the z-axis). The angle at which an edge is cut must be consistent throughout the entire card. With the exception of noted beveling on one or two edges, the cutting angles must be the same. Both the front and back of the card must be examined.

(4) Size is also a consideration, but not an absolute. The majority of Red Mans have the same dimensions, but occasionally the height or width will vary.

(5) Look for toning on each edge. No matter how fresh a Red Man may appear, the color or toning on an edge should be consistent with a card's age. While some edges may be "fresher" than others, no edge will appear to be perfectly white unless it has been trimmed.

Obviously, nothing compares to experience, but armed with the knowledge of those five characteristics and a good working idea of what unaltered high-grade Red Mans look like, a beginning collector, in only 10 minutes, should be able to identify altered cards...perhaps even a large percentage, depending on his power of observation.

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#66422 - 02/24/03 01:34 PM Re: Opinions on this Graded Red man card [Re: srs1a]
MW1
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Posts: 1358

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Scott,

You are absolutely correct. Standard Topps baseball cards present less of a grading "adventure" than other more obscure issues. My definition of vintage in the context you mention, would primarily comprise pre-war issues. Assigning a high grade to an N172 that was missing the bottom of the card would be a typical manifestation of incompetence (in my opinion).

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#66423 - 02/24/03 01:39 PM Re: MW -- I will take you up on the offer [Re: MW1]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

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MW1,

Thanks for the detailed review. This info I will definitely print and keep with
my notes. One question on the size. I've always believed that the height
was 4" on rare occasions larger. Can the height ever be smaller and NOT
be considered trimmed? I have not seen any that would qualify.

aconte
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#66424 - 02/24/03 02:19 PM MW -- thanks [Re: aconte]
theBobs
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Registered: 01/24/03
Posts: 40

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Thanks MW. Great information. Best post I have seen in along time.
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#66425 - 02/24/03 04:08 PM Re: MW -- I will take you up on the offer [Re: aconte]
MW1
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Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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aconte,

I believe that Red Man tobacco cards, much like 1952 Bowman football, come in two different sizes. While the majority of cards measure a full 4 inches, some specimens are naturally about 1/64" short. Again, while a lack of proper height may be an indication of trimming, it is not an absolute.

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#66426 - 02/25/03 01:05 AM Re: MW -- I will take you up on the offer [Re: MW1]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

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Thanks MW1. This additional info will help me argue some issues at
the Ft. Wash show. Whether they resolve anything is another story.

aconte
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