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#72913 - 03/11/03 09:50 AM No point to this post.
leon
Learning the Ropes


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 19

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----------------------------
This post had no value regarding collecting. It's gone. Leon, that's 1 strike.

Regards,
Arch.
----------------------------


Edited by Architecht (03/11/03 10:19 AM)

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#72914 - 03/12/03 12:57 AM Re: No point to this post. [Re: leon]
vintagecollector
Learning the Ropes


Registered: 02/26/03
Posts: 24

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Way to go Arch, This must have been one of those anti MW posts. Why do you have to take up for the guy?????????? Oh I know he is your "Big dealer". You should be thankful that you don't have others like him!!!!!!!

VC

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#72915 - 03/12/03 01:23 AM Re: No point to this post. [Re: vintagecollector]
Architecht
Web Architect


Registered: 01/25/02
Posts: 4335
Loc: Chicago area

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Pfffft.

If someone starts a thread that has no other purpose than to bash another member, it's gone. For instance, I also removed one of MW1's threads at the same time.

Why is this so hard for you to understand?
_________________________
  • Hour by hour resolve firmly, like a Roman and a man, to do what comes to hand with correct and natural dignity, and with humanity, independence, and justice. Allow your mind freedom from all other considerations.- Marcus Aurelius-Roman Emperor A.D. 121-180

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#72916 - 03/12/03 04:19 PM Re: No point to this post. [Re: vintagecollector]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

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Hey VC, why aren't you SGCRULES anymore? I liked that name better...and you seemed to be talk about cards and not argue as much. I'd like to see SGCRULES make a come back. Scott
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#72917 - 03/13/03 12:10 AM Questions for Architecht [Re: leon]
leon
Learning the Ropes


Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 19

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Two questions:

1. Why do I get a strike posting about MW but he does not get a strike when posting about me - even though he is lying about who I am.

2. Do you count foul tips as strike or do you follow the MLB rules?


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#72918 - 03/13/03 01:42 AM Re: Questions for Architecht [Re: leon]
Architecht
Web Architect


Registered: 01/25/02
Posts: 4335
Loc: Chicago area

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There are actually a number of factors feeding into that decision:

1. Because consideration is given to the source of the issue. As is the case on every other board here, the record and performance of the people involved is considered. So for instance, you have contributed nothing to these boards other than taking issue with MW1. You appear to be a shill account created for this express purpose. This makes your actions suspect and the consideration you're given has less leeway. It's like a percentage thing. If you're a frequent poster who mostly addresses things of interest to the hobby, but you occasionally get sucked into responding in a flame war, you're not looked on the same way as a shill account who has posted nothing thus far except flame material and starts the issues rather than responds to them.

2. You've been warned already not to make personally insulting posts that have no other purpose than to flame another member. The post I deleted was exactly that. Not only did it have ZERO content other than to flame someone, you somehow felt compelled to start a brand new thread for that express purpose.

3. The post I pulled from MW1 wasn't an insulting post directed at any particular person. It was an objection to some anonymous flame-posting done on some other board. It was certainly objectionable material. I'd have objected if I were him. However, I pulled it mainly because there's already this little flame-war in progress regarding others opinions of him. While his post wasn't really offensive to anyone in particular, it didn't seem to relate to anything other than this same issue. If it had gone up at a time when I wasn't already trying to get people to lay off of each other, I might have left it up. But in the present environment, it would have just been more fuel on the flame war. So I yanked it.

So basically, due to past records, and the difference between the nature of the two posts in question, you got a strike and he didn't. To summarize:

Your post:
a) aggressive attack against a member
b) done by a one-topic account
c) made after a warning to drop the issue
d) started on a new thread

His post:
a) response to an attack
b) done by a member who contributes lots of general interest posts
c) not directed at anyone in particular and not insulting
d) not content that he was specifically asked to drop

Two individual situations, two individual reactions.

Regarding his other posts about you, again this is a response situation. You came here and took up an issue with him. He responded. My choices are these:

a) Supress the discussion entirely, removing both original attacks and responses
b) Let the flame war run rampant
c) Let points be made on each side to a REASONABLE degree, contained to one or two threads so that people have a chance to air their issues, and then ask that the topic get dropped over time letting it fade away and hopefully move on to more productive discussions.

I chose C because I think that people do have a right to discuss their issues as long as it's done in a civil manner. Some arguements will never end if you just let them run, so I can't let this one become an obsession on these boards, but denying everyone the right to speak on something that's on their mind is a bad idea. Thus, some of your initial posts on the topic that were about objections to content and source material of MW1's posts (as opposed to personal attacks) were left to stand. So were MW1's responses where they remained relevant to the issue. So were your responses to MW1 where they remained relevant to the issue and non-personal in nature. If you guys keep your discussion within the boundaries of those threads, and you keep it non-personal, and you let it die after everyone has made all of the salient points that they need to, then in general I'll leave it alone.

If on the other hand, it spreads like a disease to other threads, becomes the subject of whole new threads and doesn't seem to ever resolve, it will be contained - which is why I asked you guys to contain it and tried to explain the circumstances of that containment. When and where you step over those lines, posts will be pulled or locked and strikes may be issued.

Arch
_________________________
  • Hour by hour resolve firmly, like a Roman and a man, to do what comes to hand with correct and natural dignity, and with humanity, independence, and justice. Allow your mind freedom from all other considerations.- Marcus Aurelius-Roman Emperor A.D. 121-180

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#72919 - 03/13/03 01:21 PM Re: Questions for Architecht [Re: leon]
vintagecollector
Learning the Ropes


Registered: 02/26/03
Posts: 24

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Questions for Architecht [re: leon]
03/13/03 08:10 AM Edit Reply



Two questions:

1. Why do I get a strike posting about MW but he does not get a strike when posting about me - even though he is lying about who I am.

Because he is theie "POSTER BOY".


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#72920 - 03/13/03 01:24 PM Re: No point to this post. [Re: srs1a]
vintagecollector
Learning the Ropes


Registered: 02/26/03
Posts: 24

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Re: No point to this post. [re: vintagecollector]
03/13/03 12:19 AM Edit Reply



Hey VC, why aren't you SGCRULES anymore? I liked that name better...and you seemed to be talk about cards and not argue as much. I'd like to see SGCRULES make a come back. Scott

Scott,

I would be glad to talk cards with you anytime you would like. As for SGCr coming back Not in the future. I really don't have anything against anyone here (Well maybe one) but I can't say names anymore cause Arch goet upset. Let me know if you need any 78 SGC cards I still have a few and I am selling all!!!


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#72921 - 03/13/03 01:55 PM Let's make the best of the situation [Re: vintagecollector]
MW1
veteran


Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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vintagecollector,

I am VERY, VERY, VERY interested in buying SGC graded cards given the impressive increases in prices that we've seen in nearly every SGC graded issue over the past year. Please send me a list. I'm an extremely strong buyer.

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#72922 - 03/13/03 02:31 PM Re: Let's make the best of the situation [Re: MW1]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

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I wish the trolls would just go away. They just attack, attack attack. Consumed and controlled by their hatred of Mike Wentz, they just keep attacking -- SGC, the moderator, anyone that steps in the way of their obsession with Wentz gets attacked.
_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#72923 - 03/14/03 12:48 AM Re: Let's make the best of the situation [Re: vayank]
deadlyembrace
The Venus Card Trap


Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 596
Loc: Austin, TX

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Wading through alot of the back-and-forth conversation on the SGC boards HAS gotten to be tedious and painful, these days, but when you step back and take a look at the big picture ... the questions that keeps bubbling up to the surface are, "Why?" and "Why now?".

Sure, the content of what MW1 posts is provacative and he, as one of the hobby's lightening rods, is sure to attract as much negative as positive response ... but why? ... and why has it invaded the SGC boards just recently?

All topics relating to PSA, the major competitor of SGC, are relevant on these boards. While I would never personally own a PSA card as a permanent part of my collection, other SGC collectors do, and therefore, there is reason, here in SGC land, to be interested in the corporate health of PSA, the competitive balance between the two companies, the relative values of SGC/PSA cards, etc. So, the more information about the competition, the better.

There is no denying that, without the many PSA-related threads MW1 has posted on these boards, SGC-only collectors like me ... who prefer to stay away from the boards across the street ... would have no clue about the recent problems at PSA. Yes, the info is presented from MW1's perspective, but was it rebutted by any of the recent PSA visitors to these boards? No!! Instead, there has been a flurry of personal attacks on MW1 as though, by tearing into his character, it would somehow invalidate the substance of his posts.

That is a tactic reminiscent of the gutter politics in this country that we are all subjected to on a daily basis. It does not inspire belief.

And am I the only member of these boards who gets the impression that the sudden, recent, steady stream of MW1 slams is somehow coordinated? Is this PSA piling on at its finest? If so, you have to wonder why ...

Anyone can post anything on message boards. It's up to the reader to apply the smell test and separate the grains of truth from the mountains of BS. MW1 has reported upheaval in the PSA world, provided editorial comment, and made predictions about PSA's future. Perhaps the levels of resulting backlash he has received are evidence that his posts have a ring of truth to them.

And perhaps the PSA naysayers have sizeable investments in the PSA product that they are desperately trying to protect.

Perhaps PSA ... the company ... sees MW1 as a threat ...


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#72924 - 03/14/03 01:00 AM Re: Let's make the best of the situation [Re: deadlyembrace]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

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DE> RIGHT ON!
_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#72925 - 03/14/03 01:13 AM Re: Let's make the best of the situation [Re: vayank]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

Offline
DE >

if you think about it, the GA buys out SGC rumor really caught steam a second time in the aftermath of the ongoing WIWAG scandal.
_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#72926 - 03/15/03 01:42 AM Re: No point to this post. *DELETED* [Re: Architecht]
Bugaboo
Psychoboo


Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 13674
Loc: Running up the clock.

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Post deleted by SeanSGC
_________________________

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#72927 - 03/15/03 06:57 AM Re: No point to this post. [Re: Bugaboo]
vintagecollector
Learning the Ropes


Registered: 02/26/03
Posts: 24

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Re: No point to this post. [re: Architecht]
03/15/03 04:42 AM Edit Reply




In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pfffft.

If someone starts a thread that has no other purpose than to bash another member, it's gone. For instance, I also removed one of MW1's threads at the same time.

Why is this so hard for you to understand?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


To put it bluntly Arch......that's the biggest load of [!@#%^&^] I've read today. I've seen you give MW1 the SAME preferential treatment when he infests the comic boards and its hard to choke down all the manure of you trying to defend him. Why does this guy constantly get by with this garbage and you constantly let him without giving HIM a strike? Makes me wonder.

As I stated before, He is the "poster-boy". Welcome to fair and accurate posting. This board reminds me of FOX News

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#72928 - 03/15/03 11:07 AM Re: No point to this post. [Re: Bugaboo]
Architecht
Web Architect


Registered: 01/25/02
Posts: 4335
Loc: Chicago area

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Whatever. I am constantly inundated from both sides of every conflict with complaining. It's inevitable. I get PMs and notifications from person A explaining to me what a biased jerk I am for siding with B, and PMs and post notifications from person B explaining to me what a biased jerk I am for siding with A.

And believe me, this conflict is no exception.

Regardless, I will and do implement what I think is right. Being uninvolved in the collecting world, and not a direct employee of any of the grading companies, and not much of a poster on these boards regarding things other than moderation I would venture to say that I'm a bit more qualified than any of the complainers to remain impartial. From an objective view point, every one of you complainers are by definition far more biased and unable to view things impartially than I am just by the nature of your involvement in the debates, the boards and the hobbies. You might want to think pretty hard about that, because it's a pretty clear set of conditional facts with very obvious effects on your points of view versus mine.

(shrug)

Arch
_________________________
  • Hour by hour resolve firmly, like a Roman and a man, to do what comes to hand with correct and natural dignity, and with humanity, independence, and justice. Allow your mind freedom from all other considerations.- Marcus Aurelius-Roman Emperor A.D. 121-180

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#72929 - 03/15/03 03:10 PM Re: No point to this post. *DELETED* [Re: Architecht]
MW1
veteran


Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1358

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Post deleted by dena
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#72930 - 03/17/03 12:29 AM Re: No point to this post. [Re: MW1]
Bugaboo
Psychoboo


Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 13674
Loc: Running up the clock.

Offline
To all:

I'm not upset.......I just know what kind of a liar that MW1 truly is. Not to mention that he is so arrogant and condescending that he truly deserves whatever he gets in here.

Also......the p.m. I sent to him was in response to the perverted one he sent to me FIRST. He's such a liar that it's almost comical.

Do you remember the one I'm talking about MW1?? You know.......the one that dealt with male genitalia.

And just in case you try to deny it you pervert (which you always do)......I've still got the original Private Message from you to prove it.

And for anybody that's interested in seeing the P.M. he sent to me.........just drop me a P.M. and I'll forward it on to you.
_________________________

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#72931 - 03/17/03 07:21 AM Re: No point to this post. [Re: Bugaboo]
Architecht
Web Architect


Registered: 01/25/02
Posts: 4335
Loc: Chicago area

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Here's a prime example of the kind of senseless garbage that people post, and if it gets pulled both participants will profess to have no idea why it's pulled. Both, if I pull these posts, will/would accuse me of pandering to their "opponent".

If I pull Bugaboo's post accusing me of giving MW1 preferential preferential treatment, Bugaboo will no doubt find that to be evidence of preferential treatment. So might others in the resulting outcry.

MW1's response is then a prime example of pork-barrelling wherein he takes the opportunity to refute some things that are said about him, but manages to include some offensive comments, turning his defense into an offense. He does this in the context of a violation that Bugaboo has on record, and therefore it's hard to pull the post since it refers to something that did happen. If I pull it, MW1 will claim that I didn't allow him to defend himself against accusations of preferential treatment. Really the problem would have been the WAY he posted, not the substance of defending himself.

Now Bugaboo has replied and I have no doubt that this will get reported and MW1 will want it pulled. Whatever.

Both parties will, I guarantee it, see themselves as the innocent defenders of their reputations here. This is how the Hatfields and the McCoys ended up killing each other for years without any idea how it get started, but each convinced they were the righteous ones.

Once again we've ended up in the gutter somehow. This is a relatively tricky situation, because it all starts with MW1 making certain claims about grading companies, and other people wanting to respond to those claims, and it seems to inevitably escalate into the above kind of trash. It is difficult to contain this kind of an arguement without seeming to needlessly squash what might otherwise be valid debate of a collecting topic.

In general I prefer to give posts that contain some redeeming elements the benefit of the doubt in order to prevent causing a situation where it looks like censorship in the practice of these boards. Censorship is not the practice of these boards. Laissez-faire board moderation is my preferences with the intention of letting people work out their own issues, especially when those issues begin with and involve genuine collecting-interest topics. However, this series of issues has proven itself to be capable of devolving to 95% junk and 5% value.

At this point, the pork barrelling is over. If anything on this topic is posted that contains any element of personal insult designed to smear other posters, it will be pulled and strikes will be issued.

Feel free to debate the LOGIC of any claims made regarding the hobby. Feel free to discuss the merits or lack of merits of grading companies. Feel free to post any rational opinion you have that doesn't smear other members. But this personal stuff has got to be dropped.

It's not often that a topic becomes inflammatory enough that it merits its own more intense standard of post monitoring. Congratulations on spoiling this topic. This is fair warning. I don't care if your post is 99% clear discussion of hobby topics with just little tiny 1% of smear. You will lose the post. If you respond to a post that contains inflammatory personal comments, you may lose that post as well, as the practice will be to pull the offending post and all of its replies - that may not be a reflection on the responding post. You may have just gotten caught up in the junk.

I hope over time to relax this standard to a more reasonable one that treats the participants as adults able to govern the maturity of their exchanges themselves, and to self-correct the trend of the the posts when they start to go off the deep end. Nothing annoys me more than having to intercede like this.

This thread is locked.

Arch
_________________________
  • Hour by hour resolve firmly, like a Roman and a man, to do what comes to hand with correct and natural dignity, and with humanity, independence, and justice. Allow your mind freedom from all other considerations.- Marcus Aurelius-Roman Emperor A.D. 121-180

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