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#83570 - 03/29/03 09:09 PM Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years?
Dungeon
If you have a dream about out-posting me, you better wake up and apologize.


Registered: 02/28/03
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Its been 4 years since Ive bought or sold any sportscards and boy how things have changed! Ive noticed the prices on a lot of cards have plummeted. Examples: Tony Gwynn 1983 Topps. A few years ago this card in a PSA 10 was 2/3 thousand dollars. I can get one for a few hundred now. Same with cards of Cal Ripken, Dan Marino, Joe Montana, Michael Jordan, and many others. Is the price decrease due to all of the JUNK card grading services out there? Im kind of glad the prices have come down because now I can afford some of them! Back in the old days it was only SGC and PSA and sometimes CSA and Beckett (because they were new) that could be trusted. Now I see KRAP graded "Gem Mint" all the time and it makes me ill. I saw a card the other day (A-Rod rookie) graded a 10 by some company called BCCG?? and it was a joke. It was no better than a PSA 8 and had close to 70/30 centering from top to bottom. I was so mad I wanted to eat the card. Literally, eat the card and the plastic and paper and krap the whole thing out later that evening. Then the card would be where it belongs! What else has changed in the past 4 years?
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#83571 - 03/30/03 05:42 AM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: Dungeon]
aconte
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Registered: 02/22/02
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Soltrick,

Some of the things I've seen in the last few months. Or take note of.

* I would only grade with Sgc, Psa, and possibly Gai. A lot depends
on your needs. As always, stay away from third tier companies.

* The set registries have caused prices to be competitive in some issues
for the first few cards. I think we are seeing some big prices for 1980's
football and late 70's. This would be for the first few graded examples
to hit the market. I think they will settle down just like baseball. I think
paying $150 for a 1980's Terry Bradshaw is insane for example.

* In many cases with the introduction of the Sgc set registry the prices
realized in auction have gone up.

* Vintage football is hot right now.

* Sgc continues to gain ground on the graded card market. With the
set registry this should increase. They are by far the most accurate
and consistent grading company around. And while I prefer Sgc, I do
have some Psa graded sets but they do not compare to the accuracy
of Sgc.

* Gai has continued to increase in the number of cards found at dealer
tables. This was evident at the last Ft. Wash show. I can't comment
on prices or quality of grading since I'm not familiar with the final product.

* Psa's customer service has gone down the toilet. From the WIWAG
debacle to handling its smaller customers (Sub# 4040950 for reference),
the quality of customer service is poor.

* A Psa grader is a good company man.

* Psa lost some of it's good employees. Now they are losing some
of their most vocal and loyal collectors/customers. My only thought
on this is whether Psa is even aware of this.

* Sgc has made several improvements with their website. However,
population and price guide options need work. They are not easy
to access and are not user friendly like Psa's. The flip side though
is that it's free while Psa charges a small fee.

* New collectors continue to enter the card market which is a good thing.
They should always do research before spending a lot of money. One
should always resist the urge of an impulse buy when just getting back
into the hobby. This should help minimize mistake or sour you from
the hobby. It should always be fun.

* Buy the card not the holder still remains the first commandment.

These were some quick thoughts on a Sunday morning. I'm sure there
are more. Good luck.

aconte


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#83572 - 03/30/03 05:59 AM phatty bestows his first p.s.a. on a worthy recipient! [Re: aconte]
Phatty
There's a fine line between clever and stupid - Spinal Tap


Registered: 01/19/03
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aconte gets the coveted "phatty seal of approval!"
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#83573 - 03/30/03 06:50 AM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: aconte]
Dungeon
If you have a dream about out-posting me, you better wake up and apologize.


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Why not Beckett or CSA? Ive seen a few cards from both companies and they were both right on. I dont know if Ill get any cards graded by SCG or not. I like their holders but i dont like the 100 point grading system.
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#83574 - 03/30/03 07:42 AM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: Dungeon]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
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Beckett provides no guarantee for its grades to protect against mis-grades.
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#83575 - 03/30/03 07:44 AM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: vayank]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
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In reply to:

(Sub# 4040950 for reference),





Aconte, What does this mean/refer to??
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---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#83576 - 03/30/03 08:34 AM It's my latest example of poor customer service at Psa [Re: vayank]
aconte
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Registered: 02/22/02
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VaYank,

The numbers are my latest submission invoice to Psa. The authentication
of this card is a difference of opinion with some. However, more importantly
this was my personal example of a lack of customer service or better
yet poor customer service by Psa.

In my opinion, it's what happens when you don't submit a few thousand
cards a month with Psa. This is something that just doesn't happen
at Sgc. They treat all their customers the same. Whether you submit
one card or a thousand a month.

Other than these comments made I won't bore you with the details
of what happened from the start. Since this an Sgc board, I won't
go into the details of the poor service.

aconte


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#83577 - 03/30/03 08:42 AM Re: It's my latest example of poor customer service at Psa [Re: aconte]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
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Vayank,

It's also obvious that I've gone out of my way to mention my example
of poor service in this thread. I just want to comment that I'm not the
only one lately. Second, this is my way of venting my frustration.
Regardless, all my comments made in my first post are
opinions based on my assessment of the graded card market. I
believe them to be accurate.

Soltrick,

I'm no Beckett fan for a ton of reasons. I've heard many say they
grade cards cut from sheets. I also don't like the fact that as a
pricing authority they can say their cards bring in the highest prices.
Finally, they do not have a strong presence in the vintage market.
As far as CSA, I never heard of them. Would they fall under third
tier grading company?

aconte
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#83578 - 03/30/03 09:17 AM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: Dungeon]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
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Soltrick,

As far as prices for MINT / GEM-MINT cards from the 80's taking a dive...I think it is a simple case of supply and demand. While I really like the '83 set (actually, I love the '63 set and '83 was designed to look like '63)..there was alot of it produced. When grading of modern cards got "hot", there was a perceived lack of high grade examples...so the ones that were around went for incredible prices. Well, people started looking into their storage boxes and started submitting a ton of these cards -- and, the prices dove into the ditch.

On grading companies, you know how I feel about CSA. I don't have a problem with BVG/BGS...they seem to be pretty solid. I don't like the fact that they publish a price guide which hypes their product.

Scott

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#83579 - 03/30/03 03:48 PM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: srs1a]
Dungeon
If you have a dream about out-posting me, you better wake up and apologize.


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Im not sure why you dislike CSA so much. Ive never had a problem with them. It makes sense why the prices fell on those 80s cards. What about the 86 Fleer basketball set. Did they produce that in the same quantities as they did basebal? I dont see that many super high grade examples of this set raw or graded.
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"Flesh eating is unprovoked murder" - Ben Franklin

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#83580 - 03/30/03 05:23 PM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: Dungeon]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

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Soltrick, I have nothing personal against CSA...I tried them once, didn't like the result and moved on. We are all adults and free to do what we want. If you want to pursue CSA, I wish you the best of luck.

On 86-87 Fleer B-Ball, I'm not sure of the production numbers; however, I don't think that they were as big as Topps baseball of the same era. But, you still see wax boxes and packs around pretty frequently, so they must have produced a good bit.

If you want to see a collection of high-grade stuff look here...the PSA registry.

http://www.psacard.com/new_set_registry/display_rsets.chtml?setid=64&set_name=1986%2D87%20Fleer

There are 3 complete sets of all 10's and another 10 or so complete with an average grade of >9. I have heard that you can pick up 8's for less than the grading fee...with a few exceptions.

Scott


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#83581 - 03/30/03 05:42 PM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: srs1a]
Dungeon
If you have a dream about out-posting me, you better wake up and apologize.


Registered: 02/28/03
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I tried CSA a few times and liked them but Im sticking with PSA for now. If my Jordan comes back a 10 I will probably try to put together a complete PSA 10 set. If it comes back a 9 Ill probably sell it. Is a grand asking too much for a PSA 9?
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#83582 - 03/30/03 07:47 PM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: vayank]
Dungeon
If you have a dream about out-posting me, you better wake up and apologize.


Registered: 02/28/03
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Whats all of this BCCG mint or better grading krap Ive been hearing about? Is this Becketts sad attempt to catch up with all of the [!@#%^&^] up grades other third party graders ( wcg,pro, fff, aaa, xyzpdq ect) have been giving these cards?
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"Flesh eating is unprovoked murder" - Ben Franklin

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#83583 - 04/02/03 09:14 AM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: Dungeon]
Captain_Pike
Collector is an understatement.


Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 143

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I would say SGC is the best grading company for Vintage & Modern cards. Just check eBay and you'll see.
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#83584 - 04/02/03 09:47 AM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: Captain_Pike]
Dungeon
If you have a dream about out-posting me, you better wake up and apologize.


Registered: 02/28/03
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okay MW1.
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#83585 - 05/06/03 11:40 AM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: Dungeon]
14_of_spades
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a question from a non-graded card collector...

i heard that there was some scandal involving PSA and some business/store selling falsified PSA cards over eBay to the tune of several hundreds of thousands of dollars.

wouldn't that cause PSA cards to nosedive in value on ebay since there would be no way (or is there a way?) to authenticate the graded cards? what DID the fact that thousands of falsified-graded cards flooding the market do to the market?
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The Simpsons: Three Men And A Comic Book (episode #34) Homer: "A hundred bucks?! For a comic book! Who drew it, Micha-ma-langelo?"

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#83586 - 05/07/03 12:05 PM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: 14_of_spades]
Fabfrank
(S)uper Collector


Registered: 06/11/02
Posts: 293

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14_0f_spades- You are referring to the "WIWAG" scandal. This has been written up in SCD and on a few threads on this and CU's message board. According to the articles I've read, the seller "WIWAG" was removing cards with strong grades (10's) and inserting a close, but lesser condition card. They would than take the card, resubmit for another 10 and repeat the process. They were caught because the resealed holders showed that they were tampered with.
Check out the above mentioned articles for more details and the reparations involved in the case.

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#83587 - 05/07/03 01:14 PM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: 14_of_spades]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

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Hello 14_of_spades,

Here's the article from SCD (courtesy of Basilone on the CU board)...I'd consider the source on many of the comments. As far as I can tell, there hasn't been a nose-dive in prices, but many people take a long hard look a holder on PSA cards these days. It is too bad no one ever explained in detail what they actually did, so it isn't really clear what to look for.

WIWAG RESTITUTION GOING WELL
By Rocky Landsverk
Details of how John Slight and Craig Kreider of When It Was A Game executed their PSA graded-card fraud are slowly coming to the surface, while collectors are being treated to an unusually high success rate of restitution.
Slight and Kreider have pled guilty to busting open PSA holders and switching the cards to lesser-quality versions. They face sentencing this summer. The story, which broke in January, shook the foundation of the grading industry as a possible catastrophe if collectors believed WIWAG’s success in switching cards invalidated the entire card-grading premise. But, said PSA president Joe Orlando, “It has had virtually no effect on our business, in terms of submissions and authentications on a daily basis. ... Now that collectors have had a chance to reflect on it, collectors seemed to have the perspective that it’s not that the system didn’t work, it’s that it did work. They didn’t get away with this.”
Tim Fitzsimmons of the FBI confirmed that one of WIWAG’s schemes was to submit a great card to PSA to get a high grade, crack the holder and remove the card, put an inferior card into that holder and use a slab-sealer to close the holder again. They would then resubmit that great card to PSA to get another high grade and use that resulting holder to repeat the process. “They would get a 10 and submit it over and over again,” Fitzsimmons said. Orlando pointed out that repetitious submissions from WIWAG are being pulled from the PSA Population Report as they’re uncovered.
A key question for which there hasn’t been a specific answer given is how many of these WIWAG-switched cards are in circulation. Fitzsimmons said WIWAG/FBI records indicate hundreds of people have sent in cards to PSA for re-examination, but he didn’t have a count of how many cards in total have been sent in for re-evaluation, nor did he have a number for how many cards WIWAG actually switched. Orlando said PSA doesn’t know those numbers either, while WIWAG declined to comment for this story.
Restitution has been excellent because, Fitzsimmons said, many things fell into place: 1) WIWAG is financially stable, unusual for criminals who’ve been caught; 2) the prosecutors in this case did collectors a favor by making restitution part of the plea agreement, not the sentencing; and 3) the new electronic world of eBay offered better record-keeping than had been previously available to investigators.
Said Fitzsimmons, “There’s a lot more incentive for restitution before the sentencing than after. And eBay provides impeccable records, which allowed e-mails to go out to (the victims). With the sales going through eBay, their records are phenomenal and they were very helpful.”
Orlando said even though a previously announced deadline has passed, collectors can still call the FBI’s WIWAG hotline at 1-858-499-7952 to inquire about having their cards re-assessed by PSA to ensure the holders don’t contain WIWAG switches.
Many collectors expected there to be a followup announcement that PSA was changing its holders so something like this couldn’t happen again. Orlando said no, there’s no need to change the holder, because obviously it works. “We don’t feel that the holder is susceptible,” Orlando said. “The holders are intended to be tamper-evident, not tamper-proof. If the holders’ security systems didn’t work, we wouldn’t have been able to catch them.”


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#83588 - 05/07/03 08:15 PM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: srs1a]
tegelaar
Hobbyist


Registered: 01/03/03
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I don't want to open a can of worms, but these latest comments really annoy me.

The whole argument by PSA is flawed. The holder works because they got caught? Why did it take so long and how do we know this isn't happening all over?
Frankly, all companies holders are easily tampered with and IMO it needs to be dealt with. Colored tape on the edges that change color when opened.. something.. anything...

The holder wasn't why they were found out - it's because a lot of people noticed their PSA 10 looked like [!@#%^&^].

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#83589 - 05/07/03 08:34 PM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: tegelaar]
jackstraw
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actually i believe it was a bonzi wells serial numbered card that nailed them?
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#83590 - 05/08/03 05:29 AM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: jackstraw]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

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Bouffard, that is my understanding, as well. Talk about greedy and stupid -- switching around numbered Bonzi Wells cards -- what a hoot!


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#83591 - 05/08/03 10:06 AM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: srs1a]
14_of_spades
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from an outside perspective, the whole situation seems ludicrous. the fact that some PSA cards were successfully tampered with, in my mind, would cause the whole PSA industry to collapse. i don't see how PSA could permit such a thing and do so little to remedy the situation.

anyhoo - speaking of PSA 10s and the like, how tough would it be for me to get a set of "Gem Mint" rookies (SGC, PSA, BGC etc.) of dwight gooden? i'm a collector from the mid-late 80s who hasn't been in the hobby for years, but when i was, gooden was king.

i finally picked up his 84 Fleer and 84 Topps tiffany off eBay in the same auction last year (as well as all his 85 rookies) - but my nostalgia hasn't stopped there - i'd really like to get the top graded cards he has out there.

tough to come by or relatively easy? or should i wait for more to come out on the census?
_________________________
The Simpsons: Three Men And A Comic Book (episode #34) Homer: "A hundred bucks?! For a comic book! Who drew it, Micha-ma-langelo?"

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#83592 - 05/09/03 12:30 PM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: 14_of_spades]
Fabfrank
(S)uper Collector


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Regarding the Goodens, IMO it would be cheaper to buy 10's. By the time you find and pay for enough raw cards. Chose the best to be submitted, and hope that they come back 10's. You could buy one 10 and avoid the trouble. If you would be happy with 9's, than it would be cheaper to submit on your own
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