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#83580 - 03/30/03 05:23 PM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: Dungeon]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

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Soltrick, I have nothing personal against CSA...I tried them once, didn't like the result and moved on. We are all adults and free to do what we want. If you want to pursue CSA, I wish you the best of luck.

On 86-87 Fleer B-Ball, I'm not sure of the production numbers; however, I don't think that they were as big as Topps baseball of the same era. But, you still see wax boxes and packs around pretty frequently, so they must have produced a good bit.

If you want to see a collection of high-grade stuff look here...the PSA registry.

http://www.psacard.com/new_set_registry/display_rsets.chtml?setid=64&set_name=1986%2D87%20Fleer

There are 3 complete sets of all 10's and another 10 or so complete with an average grade of >9. I have heard that you can pick up 8's for less than the grading fee...with a few exceptions.

Scott


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#83581 - 03/30/03 05:42 PM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: srs1a]
Dungeon
If you have a dream about out-posting me, you better wake up and apologize.


Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 2787
Loc: Still Married!

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I tried CSA a few times and liked them but Im sticking with PSA for now. If my Jordan comes back a 10 I will probably try to put together a complete PSA 10 set. If it comes back a 9 Ill probably sell it. Is a grand asking too much for a PSA 9?
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#83582 - 03/30/03 07:47 PM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: vayank]
Dungeon
If you have a dream about out-posting me, you better wake up and apologize.


Registered: 02/28/03
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Whats all of this BCCG mint or better grading krap Ive been hearing about? Is this Becketts sad attempt to catch up with all of the [!@#%^&^] up grades other third party graders ( wcg,pro, fff, aaa, xyzpdq ect) have been giving these cards?
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#83583 - 04/02/03 09:14 AM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: Dungeon]
Captain_Pike
Collector is an understatement.


Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 143

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I would say SGC is the best grading company for Vintage & Modern cards. Just check eBay and you'll see.
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#83584 - 04/02/03 09:47 AM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: Captain_Pike]
Dungeon
If you have a dream about out-posting me, you better wake up and apologize.


Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 2787
Loc: Still Married!

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okay MW1.
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#83585 - 05/06/03 11:40 AM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: Dungeon]
14_of_spades
Carpal Tunnel


Registered: 01/28/03
Posts: 1202
Loc: Immersed Somewhere

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a question from a non-graded card collector...

i heard that there was some scandal involving PSA and some business/store selling falsified PSA cards over eBay to the tune of several hundreds of thousands of dollars.

wouldn't that cause PSA cards to nosedive in value on ebay since there would be no way (or is there a way?) to authenticate the graded cards? what DID the fact that thousands of falsified-graded cards flooding the market do to the market?
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#83586 - 05/07/03 12:05 PM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: 14_of_spades]
Fabfrank
(S)uper Collector


Registered: 06/11/02
Posts: 293

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14_0f_spades- You are referring to the "WIWAG" scandal. This has been written up in SCD and on a few threads on this and CU's message board. According to the articles I've read, the seller "WIWAG" was removing cards with strong grades (10's) and inserting a close, but lesser condition card. They would than take the card, resubmit for another 10 and repeat the process. They were caught because the resealed holders showed that they were tampered with.
Check out the above mentioned articles for more details and the reparations involved in the case.

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#83587 - 05/07/03 01:14 PM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: 14_of_spades]
srs1a
Old, dense-headed hammers are cool. Best nail pounders.


Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 987
Loc: NY

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Hello 14_of_spades,

Here's the article from SCD (courtesy of Basilone on the CU board)...I'd consider the source on many of the comments. As far as I can tell, there hasn't been a nose-dive in prices, but many people take a long hard look a holder on PSA cards these days. It is too bad no one ever explained in detail what they actually did, so it isn't really clear what to look for.

WIWAG RESTITUTION GOING WELL
By Rocky Landsverk
Details of how John Slight and Craig Kreider of When It Was A Game executed their PSA graded-card fraud are slowly coming to the surface, while collectors are being treated to an unusually high success rate of restitution.
Slight and Kreider have pled guilty to busting open PSA holders and switching the cards to lesser-quality versions. They face sentencing this summer. The story, which broke in January, shook the foundation of the grading industry as a possible catastrophe if collectors believed WIWAG&#8217;s success in switching cards invalidated the entire card-grading premise. But, said PSA president Joe Orlando, &#8220;It has had virtually no effect on our business, in terms of submissions and authentications on a daily basis. ... Now that collectors have had a chance to reflect on it, collectors seemed to have the perspective that it&#8217;s not that the system didn&#8217;t work, it&#8217;s that it did work. They didn&#8217;t get away with this.&#8221;
Tim Fitzsimmons of the FBI confirmed that one of WIWAG&#8217;s schemes was to submit a great card to PSA to get a high grade, crack the holder and remove the card, put an inferior card into that holder and use a slab-sealer to close the holder again. They would then resubmit that great card to PSA to get another high grade and use that resulting holder to repeat the process. &#8220;They would get a 10 and submit it over and over again,&#8221; Fitzsimmons said. Orlando pointed out that repetitious submissions from WIWAG are being pulled from the PSA Population Report as they&#8217;re uncovered.
A key question for which there hasn&#8217;t been a specific answer given is how many of these WIWAG-switched cards are in circulation. Fitzsimmons said WIWAG/FBI records indicate hundreds of people have sent in cards to PSA for re-examination, but he didn&#8217;t have a count of how many cards in total have been sent in for re-evaluation, nor did he have a number for how many cards WIWAG actually switched. Orlando said PSA doesn&#8217;t know those numbers either, while WIWAG declined to comment for this story.
Restitution has been excellent because, Fitzsimmons said, many things fell into place: 1) WIWAG is financially stable, unusual for criminals who&#8217;ve been caught; 2) the prosecutors in this case did collectors a favor by making restitution part of the plea agreement, not the sentencing; and 3) the new electronic world of eBay offered better record-keeping than had been previously available to investigators.
Said Fitzsimmons, &#8220;There&#8217;s a lot more incentive for restitution before the sentencing than after. And eBay provides impeccable records, which allowed e-mails to go out to (the victims). With the sales going through eBay, their records are phenomenal and they were very helpful.&#8221;
Orlando said even though a previously announced deadline has passed, collectors can still call the FBI&#8217;s WIWAG hotline at 1-858-499-7952 to inquire about having their cards re-assessed by PSA to ensure the holders don&#8217;t contain WIWAG switches.
Many collectors expected there to be a followup announcement that PSA was changing its holders so something like this couldn&#8217;t happen again. Orlando said no, there&#8217;s no need to change the holder, because obviously it works. &#8220;We don&#8217;t feel that the holder is susceptible,&#8221; Orlando said. &#8220;The holders are intended to be tamper-evident, not tamper-proof. If the holders&#8217; security systems didn&#8217;t work, we wouldn&#8217;t have been able to catch them.&#8221;


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#83588 - 05/07/03 08:15 PM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: srs1a]
tegelaar
Hobbyist


Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 50
Loc: Boston

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I don't want to open a can of worms, but these latest comments really annoy me.

The whole argument by PSA is flawed. The holder works because they got caught? Why did it take so long and how do we know this isn't happening all over?
Frankly, all companies holders are easily tampered with and IMO it needs to be dealt with. Colored tape on the edges that change color when opened.. something.. anything...

The holder wasn't why they were found out - it's because a lot of people noticed their PSA 10 looked like [!@#%^&^].

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#83589 - 05/07/03 08:34 PM Re: Getting back "In the Game" Whats changed in the past 4 years? [Re: tegelaar]
jackstraw
Talkative?


Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 744
Loc: @ a Baseball Card Show

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actually i believe it was a bonzi wells serial numbered card that nailed them?
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