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#9099 - 12/27/02 03:33 PM Re: GA has PSA Heads Spooked [Re: SGCRULES]
stanthemanfan
If I just sell the car, I can up my bid...


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 366

Offline
SGCRULES

It's all packaged up ready to go to SGC in tomorrow's mail - so I won't be able to send a picture. There's a possibility I'm going to get burned - this is my first PRO purchase. Who knows - if so, I learned a $100 lesson. I'll let everyone know in a month.

Thanks

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#9100 - 12/27/02 03:54 PM Re: GA has PSA Heads Spooked [Re: stanthemanfan]
SGCRULES
Learning the Ropes


Registered: 11/25/02
Posts: 21
Loc: Little Rock, Arkansas

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Stan,

I hope I did not offend you that was not my intention. I do know of several people that bought nice looking cards in PRO holders, busted them out, sent them to PSA and they were trimmed. I hope this is not the case and please let me know the outcome

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#9101 - 12/27/02 11:24 PM Re: GA has PSA Heads Spooked [Re: SGCRULES]
stanthemanfan
If I just sell the car, I can up my bid...


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 366

Offline
SGCRULES

Absolutely not - no offense taken. It may be too good to be true - but I'm not losing sleep over it. I'd hate to have spent $100 on a doctored card - but I also like the idea of having a sweet 53 year old HOFer in SGC plastic. The risk/reward principle rightly applies to this case.

Don't worry about offending. I'll post the results - its going in with a beautiful PSA '65 Koufax and a few other GAI commons. I'll scan both cards and post on return.

Enjoy New Years.

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#9102 - 12/27/02 11:36 PM Re: GA has PSA Heads Spooked [Re: stanthemanfan]
vayank
The Amazing Card-Man


Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 948
Loc: Alexandria, Va

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Maybe we should call you "Standtheriverboatgambler."
_________________________
---- Matthew T. Natale Alexandria, Virginia Completed 1977 Topps Baseball SGC Graded Set, Average Grade 92.89

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#9103 - 12/28/02 01:57 AM Re: GA has PSA Heads Spooked [Re: stanthemanfan]
Anonymous Unregistered



Stantheman,
Great post in response to what has become a more public squabble than I would have liked. I do hope you recognize that I was ambushed in half a dozen paragraphs or so by an individual with no excuse other than my failure to respond to a 5000 word private essay he wrote me at Christmas time about the ills of the current hobby state. I will attempt to keep it from these topic-boards going forward and apologize to all for responding publicly.
As a collector that has done 50-60's sets and singles (and even a Diamond Stars set) you are correct. The difference in assembling them is very different. Those sets have funded my purchases the last couple of years as I move from "other peoples childhoods" into my own. Also, I do own great cards in many holders as well...great point there. To date, I haven't found one in a PRO holder, but I'm sure they must exist somewhere.
I do disagree with you regarding the bickering, however. It comes in all shapes and sizes and is certainly not confined to 70's collectors. Pretty broad brush stroke there...also...who's got the Chambliss????

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#9104 - 12/28/02 03:04 AM Re: GA has PSA Heads Spooked
downgoesfrazier
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 222
Loc: Summer of '77

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'twas me above. Sorry.
_________________________
***********************************************************

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#9105 - 12/28/02 07:04 AM Re: GA has PSA Heads Spooked
stanthemanfan
If I just sell the car, I can up my bid...


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 366

Offline
I picked out the '77 set only because you and another guy were going at it about winning bids, medication, etc. I honestly think vintage cards are 1969 and earlier. I've included this in a few of my emails. I would have responded the same way to any mid-late '70's set. I think collecting cards from any year is great - I just wanted to make the point that the vintage message board really spans a large group of collecting interests.

About the PRO card - I understand the general opinion of the board on PRO. I hope the card has not been altered - it may or may not.

I had to roll the dice (the riverboat gambler in me) and give it a try. SGC price guide values the card in the $1100 - 1200 range for an SGC92. A delta of $1000 was the motivator along with adding another vintage Bowman to my collection.

If it comes back trimmed - I brace myself for a chorus of "I told you so's".

I have the Chambliss SGC96 and I only paid $975.00 for it!

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#9106 - 12/29/02 09:56 AM Re: GA has PSA Heads Spooked [Re: stanthemanfan]
deadlyembrace
The Venus Card Trap


Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 596
Loc: Austin, TX

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Hey STMF --

Since I've discussed CLCT's stock price several times on this board, it's not surprising that I disagree with your opinion regarding the importance of such discussion in a card collection/hobby forum. You're off base on other issues as well (IMHO). But what REALLY bends my nose out of joint is any attempt to regulate or control the content of any discussion (… unless it’s ARCH who has that authority and responsibility).

So sit back, relax, grab something tall and frosty to drink, keep an open mind (which usually means putting yourself in someone else's shoes) ... and read on. I'll be gentle.

In reply to:

Who cares about the stock price - if you're watching Superior's stock price and allowing that to sway your purchase - then call yourself a plastic card storage holder collector. … If PSA falls apart and you have cards in their holders - you crossover to whoever is doing 3rd party grading at the time.




1. The subject of this thread relates to competitive performance among grading companies. It has evolved into the speculative idea that industry leader PSA (or its parent, Collectors Universe) might be experiencing a slow, ugly death spiral and that there may be new opportunities to be exploited by the competition. Stock prices, rising/falling revenues, market share, cash flow, etc. are … necessarily … components of such a discussion. The conjecture, predictions and wishful thinking ... that are thrown in ... make the discussion fun.

2. I suspect the more $$$ a collector has invested in his collection, the more he would think your statement is naïve and idiotic. I checked out a few sets registered across the street. Consider these:

  • The "Howard Tiss/Superior" 1962 Topps (baseball) collection. By my count, it contains 589 cards for a 96.99% completion score. 100% of the cards are 8's.
  • The "T206 King" 1909-11 T206 collection. It is 98% complete with an average card grade of 7.62. By my count, it contained 61 9's.
  • The "Charles Merkel" 1933 Goudey collection. It is 99.58% complete and is missing only the Napoleon Lajoie card. All four Babe Ruth cards are 8's and 36 others are 9's. One of the Gehrig cards is an 8, the other is a 10.

It doesn’t take a huge leap of imagination to recognize that these owners have 6- and 7-figure dollar amounts tied up in their collections. I GUARANTEE they watch the CLCT stock price every day. And the notion that, given a PSA collapse, they can simply cross cards over to the next grading service without risk or loss is absurd.

In reply to:

Card collecting is just that - buying cards not holders.




3. The moment you pay $1 extra for a 3rd party graded card vs. an equivalent card in a single screw loc-tite holder, you've bought into the "value added" argument. That is, you are paying extra for a service provided ... not a plastic holder ... regardless of which company graded the card.

In reply to:

Great cards exist in PSA, SGC, GAI, PRO, SCD, etc. - it takes a collector to filter thru the garbage and find the gems.




4. You're presuming that you have the luxury of making your own subjective evaluation of a card prior to making a purchase. Where you live, maybe that's the case. But for the last several years, 100% of my purchases have been made long distance. These include straight sales conducted via email and internet transactions. Sometimes card scans are available, but often (when dealing with someone I trust) they are not. And remember, pictures can be doctored more easily than cards. I am totally reliant on the ability of the grading service to "consistently get it right". That is, I am counting on SGC to have "filtered thru the garbage" and to have "found the gems."

5. There are significant differences between equivalent grades awarded by the various services. Period. PSA awards "soft 9's." SGC calls these 92's. I'm absolutely certain that SGC attempts to strictly apply its standards on each card it grades. I'm not at all certain that this is the case with any other grading company. End of story.





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#9107 - 12/29/02 01:24 PM Re: GA has PSA Heads Spooked [Re: deadlyembrace]
stanthemanfan
If I just sell the car, I can up my bid...


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 366

Offline
Deadly,

I recommended that another discussion group be added to cover the mid-70's to maybe mid-80's (at the time of my post - I didn't specify years). The collecting of these years is completely different when compared to earlier/older cards. You collect 1962 and '69 mint cards - based on your info page. How often does a mint 62 in an SGC holder pop-up compared to the number of '77 SGC 96's on Ebay? Maybe for every 1 '62, maybe 75-100 SGC96's are auctioned off in the same amount of time. Just my guess. Seeing that collecting these 2 particular sets are significantly different - let there be different discussion threads. That's what I said - there was no attempt to control/limit the message board.

The connection between stock price for CLCT and the price of their slabbed cards just doesn't make any sense to me. For any collectible - the true value of the object is what is paid at the time of the transaction. Plain and simple. We all can look at price guides, stock prices, etc to get an idea of what the card or valuable is worth - but at the end of the day, what 2 people agree to on a transaction amount is what the card is worth. I'll give an example - about 9 months ago, BMW put up a 1951 Bowman Lary Doby SGC 96 on Ebay. I actually took a real serious look at that card when it was on his website (prior to his auction - a 51 Slaughter also was part of this auction) priced about $950. The card sold for $2200+ on Ebay. The SGC price guide listed the card at $550 - 650 in Mint condition. A person can look at the auction price in 2 ways - the winner paid nearly 4x book or the price guide was wrong by a multiple of 4. Either way - the value of the card is now $2200+ . The only way I agree with your statement is if PSA goes belly-up and the graded-card collecting population no longer recognizes a PSA holder having a position in the market. If that is the case - then the owners of the card should be able to transfer their collection into whatever company takes the place of PSA. What I said and personally believe in is that the actual cardboard is the value - not the holder. A beat up card in a PSA holder is still a beat-up card. Whether the 3 gentlemen you mentioned in your post watch the stock price to determine if their collections have lost or gained value on a day-to-day basis - I can't answer that question. I personally know that I do not pay more or less for a card depending on how CLCT or any other listed 3rd party grading company stock is doing on any specific day or quarter.

Filtering thru garbage to find the gems - it is my personal practice to always request a scan of a graded card before I buy. I collect 1968 Topps - the centering of a SGC92 can vary significantly - even though SGC is the toughest of the grading companies. I will not buy every 92 that is offered up for sale - even though SGC or PSA or whoever says its a nice card via their respective grade. I am the final filter of all graded cards when it comes to my own purchases. I always want to look at the card (even though the grade is known) before I buy . If someone purchases cards sight-unseen, that's fine - knock yourself out. I just don't.

What my post said was that I look at the card first and holder second. For example, the universal opinion that I understand is that no ones believes good cards are in PRO holders. For some, that opinion automatically eliminates whatever card population exists for PRO - that's fine. I don't have that opinion and I am willing to look at and buy cards outside of PSA, SGC, GAI, BVG. For every person that eliminates a specific grading company - that represents 1 less person who I may have to compete with in auction setting. That is what my message talked about.



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#9108 - 12/29/02 01:46 PM Re: GA has PSA Heads Spooked [Re: deadlyembrace]
aconte
Bid more or post more... tough one...


Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 1896
Loc: On The Beach....where else!

Offline
DE,

My guess is that Charles Merkel is not worrying in so muxh that he's losing
sleep over the price of CLCT stock. One, I'm sure he is financially secure.
Two, Gai would cross all his cards in a heartbeat.

Guys like me could cross over my Psa cards to Sgc or vice-versa. But it
would cost a few bucks!

aconte
_________________________

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